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Methylb12 and adrenal fatigue?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Anteah, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    Thanks for that suggestion, Jeffrez! Which exactly long-term HPAA effects with PS are you talking about though? I didn't know it caused those, now kind of worried.
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    I think it's possible that your zinc supplementation affected the results of this test, given the time scale and the dosage.

    One way to check for zinc deficiency is to look at the activity of alkaline phosphatase, which is on the standard blood metabolic panel that physicians routinely run, used as one of the markers for liver function. This is a zinc-requiring enzyme, so if its activity is much below the mean value of its reference range, it suggests zinc deficiency. If not, the zinc level is probably O.K.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    biophile likes this.
  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Melatonin either keeps me awake or does nothing. Phosphatidyl does nothing. Are the herbs strong enough if taken as a tea? Are they taken at bedtime, or throughout the day?
  4. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I wouldn't think the herbs would be strong enough as a tea but I am not a seasoned herbalist. It would probably depend on how the tea was made and the quality of the raw product as well.

    You could try both ways - taking just before bed or all day long to see which worked better for you.

    Zinc might also help to lower cortisol especially if you are low.

    I went back into my notes and found my list of cortisol lowering herbs. Maybe one of these would help (sorry for duplicates):

    Lower High Cortisol -
    1. Phosphatidylserine
    2. Holy Basil
    3. DHEA
    4. Zinc
    5. Valerian
    6. Skullcap
    7. Medicinal Mushrooms eg Cordyceps
    8. Melatonin (PM only)
    9. Kava Kava (short term only)
    10. 5-HTP (contradictory)
    11. L-Theanine
    12. Magnolia Bark
    13. Bacopa
    14. Ecklonia Cava
  5. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Hi Anteah - PS can alter cortisol receptor sensitivity and have the long-term effect of downregulating cortisol production.

    Also, to add to Ema's great list, I believe withania a.k.a. ashwagandha should probably be able to lower too-high cortisol levels through its adaptogenic action. Might be worth a try until you find out what your levels are, as I think it would tend to normalize the situation whether cortisol was either too high or too low. It seems to be one of the more powerful adaptogens - I can really notice when I take it, at least.
  6. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Btw, with those with elevated cortisol, I just remember reading recently that rooibos tea inhibits steroidogenesis even possibly up to 4-fold. So a strong cup of that in the evening at the time when your cortisol is increasing too much (or a little before then) might help put a damper on the nighttime overproduction.

    Here's the study:

    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2012 Feb;128(3-5):128-38. Epub 2011 Nov 12.
    The influence of Aspalathus linearis (Rooibos) and dihydrochalcones on adrenal steroidogenesis: quantification of steroid intermediates and end products in H295R cells.

    Schloms L, Storbeck KH, Swart P, Gelderblom WC, Swart AC.
    Source

    Department of Biochemistry, University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch 7600, South Africa.
    Abstract

    The steroid hormone output of the adrenal gland is crucial in the maintenance of hormonal homeostasis, with hormonal imbalances being associated with numerous clinical conditions which include, amongst others, hypertension, metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disease, insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Aspalathus linearis (Rooibos), which has been reported to aid stress-related symptoms linked to metabolic diseases, contains a wide spectrum of bioactive phenolic compounds of which aspalathin is unique. In this study the inhibitory effects of Rooibos and the dihydrochalcones, aspalathin and nothofagin, were investigated on adrenal steroidogenesis. The activities of both cytochrome P450 17α-hydroxylase/17,20 lyase and cytochrome P450 21-hydroxylase were significantly inhibited in COS-1 cells. In order to study the effect of these compounds in H295R cells, a human adrenal carcinoma cell line, a novel UPLC-MS/MS method was developed for the detection and quantification of twenty-one steroid metabolites using a single chromatographic separation. Under both basal and forskolin-stimulated conditions, the total amount of steroids produced in H295R cells significantly decreased in the presence of Rooibos, aspalathin and nothofagin. Under stimulated conditions, Rooibos decreased the total steroid output 4-fold and resulted in a significant reduction of aldosterone and cortisol precursors. Dehydroepiandrosterone-sulfate levels were unchanged, while the levels of androstenedione (A4) and 11β-hydroxyandrostenedione (11βOH-A4) were inhibited 5.5 and 2.3-fold, respectively. Quantification of 11βOH-A4 showed this metabolite to be a major product of steroidogenesis in H295R cells and we confirm, for the first time, that this steroid metabolite is the product of the hydroxylation of A4 by human cytochrome P450 11β-hydroxylase. Taken together our results demonstrate that Rooibos, aspalathin and nothofagin influence steroid hormone biosynthesis and the flux through the mineralocorticoid, glucocorticoid and androgen pathways, thus possibly contributing to the alleviation of negative effects arising from elevated glucocorticoid levels.
  7. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    This is so interesting!

    So by mean value, do you mean 50% of the reference range or about 88 (25-150)?

    I've been testing for zinc, serum and RBC and trying to work out if I have a deficiency. By this test, with an alkaline phosphatase value of 57, that would certainly be in line with a deficiency if I am understanding correctly?

    Thanks!
  8. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I just want to add that allergies cause hypothyroid and adrenal burnout for me. It is because they destroy tissues which use up zinc to rebuild (to the tune of 75mg/day or more). So give a thought as to whether you have an allergy (could be to seasonal pollen you know not necessarily something yo ate) or whether in fact something in the supplement could even cause an allergy??? My seasonal allergies cause severe hypothyoid, adrenal burn out, and PEM, all substantially relieved with high dose zinc.
  9. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    I agree, triffid, same here, I have severe anxiety as a reaction to milk products, and feeling of adrenal burn out. Zinc though is somewhat of a issue for me, I can take up to 75mg a day but more just give me constipation, and I take magnesium and eat a lot of fiber, so you'd think it would counteract it but it doesn't for some reason. What form of zinc do you use?
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Ema.

    Yes, that's right. Looks as though your zinc is somewhat low. Do you have white spots on your fingernails? That's another indicator of low zinc, though I'm not sure it is as reliable.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  11. rachel

    rachel

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    I thought about taking P5P for cognitive function (concentration/attention) but as far as I understand, lower the cortisol while adrenal glands are weak isn't such a good idea.
    Does the basic B-6 also has a potential to lower cortisol? It is one of the components of B-complex (0.5 mg in 1 drop in my B-complex), that is very recommended for adrenals supporting.
  12. rachel

    rachel

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    Adrenal support (nutrition or supplements) vs treating the methylation cycle: In terms of negative symptoms, safe methods and the long range.
  13. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    Well, being on mb12 for several days now I start realizing that what I've been feeling was not as much individual adrenal symptoms but a part of a larger detox process that i haven't been able to see until now. On a second day I developed flu like (seriously flu, could've fooled me) reaction with sore/scratchy throat and stuffed up nose and body ache. At first I took it for a coincidence, but the more I read the more realize that it is probably my immune system fighting some dormant bug that I probably had for a long long time. So i do withdraw my original question about adrenals, I think this is a bigger process then just direct stimulation of adrenals. On Thursday though i already have to go to work, and my work is somewhat physical in that I have to walk for a long period of time. I am feeling OK, not great but able to work, but now my question is how hard can i push myself? Originally I though it was a normal coincidental viral infection and took Tuesday off just to baby myself so to say and recover (I never EVER usually take off work), but now realizing that it is probably just a MB12 detox i am wondering if I am in a possible danger of actually getting sicker if I push through and deal with my work just as if it was another normal day? Or should i take especially easy? Has anyone here dealt with cold/flu like detox? How should one treat it as though it is a real viral infection with immunity being somewhat low or as an increase immune system response to a dormant bug? Any advice is greatly appreciated!!!
  14. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Sorry, I know of no reason to be picky about zinc or brands...I have on my shelf this right now:
    soloray zinc 75mg as zinc amino acid chelate (I only would take this dose during allergy season)
    Kal opti-zinc 30mg as monomethionine with 300mcg copper amino acid chelate
    soloray biocitrate zinc50mg as zinc citrate with 50mg pumpkin seed

    I have not determined how much zinc I need not during allergy season. I did not recover from allergy season as promptly this time as in the past and am wondering if my supplementation protocol of zinc of 15mg is not enough (but why suddenly?) or if it is because I am relying on a Thorne multivitamin to give it and maybe it is not as well absorbed from a multi? So I have popped the 30mg zinc above here and there but can't tell if that does anything. Allergy season threw me into my unilateral headache (optic nerve) which takes 3 oreganol pills (very strong antioxidant) to significantly blunt) which says to me it is a large free radical situation going on and idk why??? I thought maybe from teh iodine in my multi, but I am taking a non-iodine (Thorne) multi now...

    diagnose-me website says not only do allergies use up zinc but they also use up vitamin A and I have not taken any steps to try to replete that yet to see if it has an effect. Vitamin A is needed to carry iron and iron is needed for many of the enzymes involved in dopamine and thryoid and adrenal production, so that may be what is whacking me. Whatever it is I have recovered enough to start feeling dopamine again, but not reliably...I am on the edge of recovery but not there yet...So it is 3 weeks after allergy season and a 3 week recovery is not good enough...I am still trying to solve that.

    Also it could have to do with copper, as zinc prevents copper absorption...I am taking 4-5.5mg copper/day...I was too nervous/careful to take more than that even though I took a lot of zinc during allergy season. Be aware that taking zinc can make you copper deficient. At this 4-5.5mg copper dose I am getting prompt wound healing...something that I have not had in 10 years (estrogen helps absorb copper and so copper levels wane after menopause unless you eat more copper).

    It sounds like you may have gotton a handle on what is going on with you. I take Olive Leaf extract so would not get infections based on startup.

    Triff
  15. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I may have already said this, but DHEA lowers cortisol (or I should say, normalizes cortisol). However DHEA is used up in the case of illness, so you can still get adrenal burnout...just not as fast. I get adrenal burnout 3 weeks into a 4 week long allergy season (DHEA manages to hold it off until then). Life EXtension advocates using DHEA to treat flu. Coffee raises cortisol (2 cups, 33%) and after I turned 50 I could not drink coffee at all (caused panic attack as well as raised blood pressure) until I supplemented DHEA. Now I can drink it again.

    The above is scientific. The below is not. The waqy I understand it from the old WrongDIagnosis website (never saw a study) is that any nutritional deficiency can cause raised cortisol and then leading to adrenal burnout. The adrenal gland tries to help you keep going in the face of the deficiency which is a stress. idk if that is true but it is something to consider.
  16. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    No white spots!

    But my CMP yesterday came back again with Alkaline Phosphatase at 57. I've been taking 30 mg of Optizinc daily...wondering if it is better to take a higher dose or just assume that 4-6 weeks is not long enough to correct a deficiency?
  17. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I think this is an important distinction - DHEA lowers cortisol if your cortisol levels are high but there is no evidence to show that it is anything but beneficial in those with low cortisol and low DHEA. There is a study that shows benefit to those with Addison's disease (no cortisol production) and that would not be the case if it lowered cortisol levels across the board.

    DHEA seems to be very dependent on form though with the lipid matrix or micronized forms being the only ones to show significant benefits. DHEA is also supposed to convert to testosterone in women but that is often not the case. I have only gotten minimal testosterone from DHEA though it did boost estrogen. It's important to test as pathways do not always work the same for each of us.
  18. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I'm not sure that P5P or B6 lowers cortisol.

    Here is a summary of the research from LiveStrong:

    B-6 and Cortisol

    A study linking the relationship between cortisol and vitamin B-6 was published in 1960 in the journal "Endocrinology." At that time, researchers discovered that rats who had depleted levels of vitamin B-6 experienced reduced cortisol action. These results suggested that B-6 is actually essential to how cortisol functions and does not inhibit its actions. Further support for this research was demonstrated in 1984 in an article published in the "Bulletin of the Italian Society of Experimental Biology." Italian researchers studied the effect of vitamin B-6 on circadian rhythm, ACTH and cortisol in humans. The results revealed that supplementation of vitamin B-6 had no effect on ACTH or cortisol. To date, no studies have proven otherwise. Although vitamin B-6 plays a role in the production of enzymes closely linked to cortisol, supplementation does not reduce its effects.


    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/523976-does-vitamin-b-6-lower-cortisol/#ixzz21B0iPbGq
  19. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    That's interesting, but I wouldn't really trust anything I read on Livestrong. Their info tends to be spotty & incomplete at best, in my experience. Pretty sure that P5P antagonizes steroid activity, whether through directly lowering cortisol levels or the effects through receptors, binding, etc.
  20. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I generally agree with your assessment of LiveStrong but the summary is pretty good in this case in my opinion and points towards the actual research articles for those who wish to look into it further.

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