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Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. velha508

    velha508

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    More than the basics

    Hi Fredd,

    From the nature of the questions I have and those of most I see on this forum I was thinking it might be useful for you to add a post to the basics forum about what to do 'next'. That is, when to try the fumarate, when to do the 50 mg challenge (what to look for when you do it if you do experience something). I've been following along and yet still feel a bit confused and unsure of how to proceed.

    I have all my basics down (need to up Zinc a bit) and am taking 1 adB12, 2 metB12, and the methylfolate daily. I also take alpha lipoic acid, CoQ10 (wasn't linked to blood pressure increase after all), D-ribose, and acetyl-carnitine. I have purchased the fumarate and would like to switch over to it for a trial - should I do this immediately or up my metB12 first, or do I need to have all of the basics and the three (adB12, metB12, and methylfolate) main in place for a certain amount of time.

    I see you recommended taking up to 4 metB12 per day for a certain length of time prior to doing the 50 mg challenge...

    Thanks for your continued help with all of this. In light of how I felt this summer and up to a week ago I feel wonderful now! A huge portion of this central overwhelming fatigue (could walk around with this but felt like my core was drained) I was feeling has let up for 4-5 days now and it is very nice to have some hope...
    Velha
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dreambirdie,

    -Aminobutyric acid (GABA) (IPA: [ˈgmə əˈmiːnoʊbjuːˈtɪrɨk ˈsɨd]) is the chief inhibitory neurotransmitter in the mammalian central nervous system. It plays an important role in regulating neuronal excitability throughout the nervous system. In humans, GABA is also directly responsible for the regulation of muscle tone.[1] In insect species GABA acts only on excitatory nerve receptors.

    In vertebrates, GABA acts at inhibitory synapses in the brain by binding to specific transmembrane receptors in the plasma membrane of both pre- and postsynaptic neuronal processes. This binding causes the opening of ion channels to allow the flow of either negatively charged chloride ions into the cell or positively charged potassium ions out of the cell. This action results in a negative change in the transmembrane potential, usually causing hyperpolarization. Two general classes of GABA receptor are known: GABAA in which the receptor is part of a ligand-gated ion channel complex, and GABAB metabotropic receptors, which are G protein-coupled receptors that open or close ion channels via intermediaries (G proteins).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid

    GABA, is a neurotransmitter and b12 can affect the production of neurotransmitters, inhibiting the production by it's lack. As it is involved in cell membrane things, as is Omega3 oils in some of it's functions, maybe there is a balance to look at there. I'm only speculating as to these possible channels of interactions having not heard of such a reaction before.


    Elsewhere, others have had shortness of breath as a deficiency symptom, which came and went at first, that pretty much resolved after a while on the active b12s + cofactors. This is not to be confused with cardiac problems which appear of entirely different cause and a serious condition.
    It sounds like a good time to add the metafolin.
  3. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Thanks Freddd--

    I know all about how GABA is supposed to work, but that did not happen for me, as is often the case.

    I have had weird cardiac issues--mostly PVC's and palpitations for some time now. But the GABA made them A LOT worse.

    Right now, I am having regular INSOMNIA problems. I think it's hormonal, due to major peri-menopause. Would B12 help that?

    And yes, I will get the metafolin.
  4. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd,

    Thanks for your reply. I'm a bit too brainfogged to say anything else that is meaningful but just wanted to say thanks for responding!
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dreambirdie,

    I guess all I was trying to say was that as mb12 can affect the generation of GABA perhaps there is some sort of collision causing strange symptoms. With so many different systems messed up all at the same time it's hard to tell what is what until some of the things at least resolve. Good luck.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Velha,
    I see you recommended taking up to 4 metB12 per day for a certain length of time prior to doing the 50 mg challenge...

    That makes sure that it isn't just a higher dose body reponse. Those cabn be ellimnated. If the 50mg test is done early it needs to be repeated later unless the results are very clear.

    I have purchased the fumarate and would like to switch over to it for a trial - should I do this immediately

    Within 3 days of taking both adb12 and methylfolate and having settled down without all sorts of startup reaction going on to those so you can tell if something new starts up. Both of those usually settle quickly.

    I'm doing a 50mg mb12 challange today to see if the potency of my injectable is good. It doesn't seem to have it's usual potentcy so I'm testing to see if it does. It is does, the 50mg will make no difference. If they make a difference then I let the pharmacy know. This is fragile stuff and sometimes there have been ineffective batches fior unknown reasons. We have speculated even that the batch of bateria that grow it may make some different isomers.


    In light of how I felt this summer and up to a week ago I feel wonderful now! A huge portion of this central overwhelming fatigue (could walk around with this but felt like my core was drained) I was feeling has let up for 4-5 days now and it is very nice to have some hope...

    It's good to hear that the fatigue is letting up. The fatigue is for a lot of people a good "pivot point" symptom in that it responds quickly to changes in the program and by watching it a person can tell what works as it changes quickly as a funtional problem rather than one of damage which takes so much longer to heal.
  7. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    M b12 gives me severe muscle pain, while ad b12 does not. Do you think I should stick to M b12?

    Sara
  8. klutzo

    klutzo Senior Member

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    Reaction to program or not?

    I just came from the doctor's. My blood pressure was over the moon. I had a panic attack on the way home and still have chest pain and a pounding headache. Extra medication has not lowered the blood pressure and I take a very strong BP med. Could this be due to the B12, and if so, which one? I am going to have to back off here. My panic attacks often bring on PSVTs, which are no laughing matter and I hate the emergency room and can't afford the copays.

    klutzo
  9. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Maybe Less is More, Klutzo

    People are having a range of responses to the b12's (and I'm a grateful wallflower, observing and learning, before I try). It reminds me a bit of the initial responses to Rich's Simplified 5.

    I think perhaps some of us need to start with "sprinkles"--like the 1/256th of a dose that someone here is taking and tolerates. Maybe you too Klutzo.

    Honestly we are all so different. For some of us, a smidge may upregulate certain pathways, start detox, start us killing bugs, or wake threatened bugs from a sort of dormancy.Who knows! For some of us, it may allow us to dump metals and that may be toxic if we don't have binders on board.

    For those of us who can't afford regular testing (toxic metals, urine metabolites etc) we really have to go slow and try to reason out why we are reacting. If we overdo it then we may react so badly we never get the chance to try the protocol.

    I'm hoping to figure out soon what to do myself. WHether I should start with folapro (need to reorder) and whether I should do actifolate? and whether I should try perque or my bladder won't like it, try Intrinsi Factor (Rich recommends), and try adenysol and methyl b lozenges. I will say my instinct is against methyl for me at least for quite a while. I have way too much mercury on board and too many bugs. I need to go very slow and take tiniest doses and see how I do.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sara,

    Can you describe the muscle pain(s) more specifically? I had a number of different ones at different times of different causes. Some of them were from deficiencies and some were from nerves waking up but being only partly functional, some were from bothched up biochemistry and some were from lack of healing. Some were actiually inflamed bolld vessels within the muscles. Generally the pain associated with mb12 startup is nerves waking up but not enough to function well right away. Sometimes this also causes spasming which then causes pains. Without more detail my first inclination is to say that if it is from mb12 startup it could be hypersensitizing of the nerves. If that is the case, the way is through it because restoring nerve function will be painful whenever it happens. Disseminated muscle pain is very common in FMS and in mb12 and adb12 deficiencies, but of different causes in the cases of the two different b12s. One of the biggest startup effects from b12 is a hypersensitisation and to intensified perception of most symptoms. What else is happening along with it?
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Klutzo,

    Are you taking CoQ10? Mine went down to it's usual for the time within 36 hours of the last CoQ10 dose. Several others have had that identified cause to suddenly increased blood pressure as well. It's been common enough that I have tried to alert folks to it. I also got the pounding headache from it so it was very easy to identify.

    Mb12 itself is associated with normalizing bloodpressure, reducing it if high, increasing it if low due to deficiency conditions such as anemia.

    My suggestion would be to skip your vitamins tonight. Most of these things are short halflife and will largely be out of your system by morning. Then try adding just a few things at first and observe. My increased in blood pressure was observable within 2-3 hours after taking CoQ10. Don't do panic attacks as that will mess up all the observations and results. Start simple and with the basics, such as b-complex, a&d, E, calcium and magnesium. These are unlikely to be involved. Can you take your BP at home? Then you can watch as you add various things in. Sublinguals, because they go into the serum in minutes are likely to affect the BP in minutes if either is the culprit. As much as any one thing it could be a combination and the last piece of the the combo is the one that looks like the cause. For me that was the CoQ10 whch I had no trouble with earlier or later. It appeared to be the last item in a combination that triggered it at an early stage of healing only. It's also possible that you won't find a thing. Good luck. Play it scientifically is my best advice.
  12. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    I have CFS and Fibro. Mb12 causes a fibro flare-up - flu like aching all over my body. I will not quit taking it because of pain.
  13. klutzo

    klutzo Senior Member

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    COQ10 and high BP

    Hi Freddd,
    Yes, I have the weaker form of COQ10, ubiquinone, in my multivitamin, and I also take the stronger form, ubiquinol, on it's own, 3 X a week on my exercise days, which are Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

    I hate to skip my multi, since several of the things you want me taking are coming from there. It is a mega-dose, very good, 6 capsule per dose multi. But, I guess I will have to do it for a few days to see what happens.

    I wish I understood the science behind how COQ10 which is so desperately needed in Fibro people, could cause high BP in the presence of high B12. Doesn't make sense to me. I am not taking anywhere near the recommended dose for people with Fibro because I can't afford it.

    How soon did you add it back in? I don't want to be off it for long....I also have CFS and compensated cardiomyopathy is involved in that, at least according to Dr. Cheney. COQ10 is the best supp. for that problem.

    Thanks,
    klutzo
  14. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi klutzo,

    I have just now gone and read some of Dr Cheney's writings. Let's consider that ab12 has to do with energy gneration and CFS. FMS on the other hand appears to do more with MB12 and neurological and cell/dna replication. What is the effect on cardiac tissue of a shortage of MB12 and AB12? A lack of mitochondria funtionality for generating energy for ADB12. AB12 appears to correct post exertional fatigue problems. My muscles also could not build new muscle while still lacking adb12 and hence unable to repair itself or strengthen. For 9 months of mb12 with no adb12 I had some minor improvment in energy and cessation of the burning muscle pain. I did not have any improvment in exercise capacity or muscle strength or endurance or exercise recovery. Upon taking adb12 all those things started improving immediately. When I added l-carnitine fumarate my exercise capacity and endurance literally doubled in one day, from 17 minutes on the Nordic Track which was a wall I hit for months to 34 minutes and steady improvment after that.

    With the improvment in neurological signal from MB12, the splitting of cells resuming with MB12, the output of mitochodria improving with ADB12 and l-carnitine fumarate perhaps this then sets the stage for increased blood pressure with CoQ10. I have a lot more reading to do, more than I am going to do tonight approaching midnight. It sure begins to make sense though.

    In these cases, treatment involves pharmaceutical supplementation or increased consumption of coenzyme Q10 with meals as well as treatment with suitable chemical compounds (i.e. folic acid or B-group vitamins) which significantly increase ubiquinone biosynthesis in the organism.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15928598

    Maybe it's the presence of b-complex, methylfolate and b12 all together and it normalizes prodction of CoQ10 by the body? B12 deficiencies affecgt more than 600 biochemical chains, maybe this is one of them.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, freddd.

    You wrote:

    "Maybe it's the presence of b-complex, methylfolate and b12 all together and it normalizes prodction of CoQ10 by the body? B12 deficiencies affecgt more than 600 biochemical chains, maybe this is one of them."

    You're right about this. Methylation is required in the synthesis of Co Q10. The nutrients you mentioned support the methylation cycle.

    Other substances that require methylation for their synthesis are carnitine, choline, and creatine.

    Sorry I haven't been very communicative lately. I'm pretty swamped. Sounds as though you're doing some good things.

    Rich
  18. klutzo

    klutzo Senior Member

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    exercise capacity/stopping for now

    Hi Freddd,
    I am up at 2 am because my body is trying very hard to have another panic attack/PSVT, and my chest muscles hurt so bad I can hardly breathe. By taking double doses of my medication at 10 pm, I got my pressure down to 140/78, which is still not good, but at least out of stroke level. That dose of meds should have kept me asleep until 4 am. easily.

    It is interesting that you should mention increasing your exercise capacity in one day with L-carnitine fumarate. I had the same experience when I started taking Creatine before my work-outs. I'd been stuck at only 8 bicep curls for over a decade. After one dose of 2.5 grams of Creatine, I could do 60 bicep curls with no lactic acid cramping pain afterwards. I will stop taking that also, as it has been implicated in raising BP with big doses, much, much higher than what I take, but maybe even a tiny dose is a problem on this protocol.

    I came back to edit after seeing Rich VanK had posted while I was typing this.Now I am really confused. Since Creatine requires methylation to work as he says, why did I have such amazing results with it long before hearing of, let alone starting this protocol? I have wondered all along whether I really have undermethylation, since I had almost as many symptoms in the overmethylation list as on the undermethylation list.

    I am not sure what your post was aiming at. Did you mean I should drop the MB12 and only take the ADB12? That is what it sounded like, but I am not sure.

    The whole issue may be moot if the attack mode keeps up, which it can do for weeks or even months if it really gets going. Then I will not be able to take ANY supps. but magnesium, (which has always been the supp. that helps me most), or eat anything but hot cereal and applesauce, and a lot more of my hair will fall out. Welcome to the wonderful world of pancreatic failure, which Dr. Hyde found to be the no. 2 cause of death in his CFS patients over a 25 yr. period. This was shocking, as the cause of death lists for Fibro and Lyme match exactly, and I expected the CFS list to be the same. It was the same, except for the pancreatic thing, which came as a complete shock to everyone I know. Most all of us with Lyme are told to take digestive enzymes, but I am the only one I know of with a serious diagnosis as to why I need them.

    I would blame all this on my having been in the Medicare donut hole for a month now and not being able to afford full doses of my pancreas med for the rest of the year, but I don't believe in coincidence and this problem started when I added folate, which feeds Borrelia. I am thinking folate could be the culprit, but don't know.

    What I'm trying to figure out is how B12 could make the pancreas problem so much worse that it starts triggering panic again. When I saw the doc yesterday, she mentioned pancreatic cancer, kidney failure and a couple of other things, lovely ideas to put in my head.

    The whole thing is causing me way too much adrenal stress. I am stopping this protocol for now to see if it will stop these attacks, because I have a 30% chance of blacking out and a 3% chance of dying of cardiac arrest each time I have one. I also get no sleep because the attacks last for hours, and I have responsibilities I can't pass off to anyone else so I must sleep.

    If it's not the protocol causing this, then I need to beg, borrow or steal some more prescription pancreatic enzymes to get me to Jan. 1. 2010 when ins. will pay again, get stabilized, and then restart the protocol again.

    Thanks for your help thus far and good luck to all.
    klutzo
  19. imgeha

    imgeha Guest

    Improvement

    I also want to report some minor improvement. I have only been taking the methyl B12 sublinguals for a week. I had an interesting few days of start-up, mainly palpitations, feeling anxious, buzzing nerves on 2mg methyl B12. I backed off for one day, then restarted on 1mg for one day, then went back up to 2mg, and am now on 3mg without any problems (so far). I will stick at this level for a bit. I am also taking the adenosyl and just added in a half tablet of metafolin today, so we'll see how that goes.

    This thread is very useful. I noticed today that my blood pressure had gone up to 133 / 83, and imagine it is due to the CO10 I take 3 times a day. I will stop this now and see if this normalises...

    The main improvement is in my POTS, which has been debilitating. After a few days of start-up heart symptoms - palpitations, missed beats, heavy beat - this has now stopped and the tachycardia when I stand is diminishing. This is wonderful news! I also feel less brain fogged and better able to concentrate. Less off the planet, more with it. I am hopeful.

    So that's my progress report one week in. Let's see where this takes me....

    Nicola
  20. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Thanks for everybody's reports. I only think people should start on lower doses, that's all. You can always ramp up. But you can't always ramp down easily as an overwhelming response (like Klutzo's) is scary and when scared and sick it's hard to be scientific. If I were Klutzo I'd stop everything, wait to normalize, and start up again one by one with microdoses.

    Bugs probably methylate, too. Maybe when you start methylating a little war ensues between you and the bugs. Bugs know right away when their safe home is changing. They get upset and they start waging war if they can. We're all organisms trying to survive.

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