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Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    (From JenBooks - moved post)

    Mike, how does your doc handle mercury toxicity? IE does his approach allow the body to detox mercury on its own? Because I can't handle chelation (I'm too sensitive to even small amounts of redistribution) and I know my problems go back to amalgam poisoning in my teens. Probably have really poor detox for mercury genetically. This is one reason I am going to experiment with a few methylation supplements. I'd like my body to be able to dump metals and I know from Yasko's work the autistic children will do so on their own when methylation is fixed.

    Thx in advance
  2. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    m0Joey replied

    I've been wondering the same thing. Great question.

    I wanted to mention, in addition to whatever MIke has to say, that Klinghardt recently started doing DMPS with procaine injections, and says that has stimulated detox very rapidly. Maybe the neutralizing effects of procaine would allow those of us that are chemically-sensitive to tolerate the chelation better.

    However, from what Mike has said, it seems that just traditional neural therapy alone stimulates plenty of detox by virtue of rebooting the ANS. Conceivably, those areas of our bodies that previously wouldn't "let go" of metals would then do so.

    Maybe the DMPS+procaine is only necessary in patients with otherwise-unresolvable metal issues
    __________________
  3. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Lisa replied

    Hi Jenbrooks!

    I wanted to offer from my own recent experience with beginning to fix the methylation cycle - go uber slow for the first several weeks if you don't have good detoxing set up yet in your body. We didn't go as slow as we should have when throwing that methylation switch and the detox has been fierce but the avenues out of the body are still plugged. Not a happy place to be.

    The only thing we've been able to do is back off on the majority of the main methyl donors so that the detox stops, but five weeks of being on supps that trigger the methylation cycle have lost us 18 months of progress and was starting to bring us to a spot worse than ever just before we stopped almost completely. I think there was a lot of nasty things being unbound by the methyl donors which was directly effecting cognitive functions, energy levels, and pain levels.

    I only bring this up because you were saying you might be a poor mercury detoxer genetically, so it made me concerned regarding if your detox system is fairly functional or all clogged up like mine is.

    Take care!
    Lisa
  4. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Healthful Detox

    Cort asked about the pace of detox

    Hi Lisa - I am very concerned about doing detoxing therapies. I know they work fine for some people. I remember someone who improved greatly doing chelation but I've also heard of people who went too far and lost a lot of ground that either took a long time to recover whatever was recovered.

    I assume that one can expect some negative effects while detoxing. My question is when do you know when you're starting to cross the line? Is there an easy answer for this?

    My plan when I do Freddd's B12 program is that I will take it very slowly and if negative effects occur and start to hang around then I will quickly back off.

    How long were you on the methylation program before the negative symptoms started showing up? I guess my main question is how long after the negative symptoms started showing up did you keep at the program?
    __________________
  5. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Osr

    Moved Posts to New Forum

    Jenbooks

    Thanks Lisa...I plan to crush folapro and crush hydroxy with a mortar and pestle (even a sublingual). I am worried about fillers but not much I can do. I plan to take a dusting. I'm so sensitive that's how I'll start. "A pinch of salt". The problem if is you're not monitoring urines which is expensive you don't really know if it's "detox" or "tox".

    Sushi

    As someone who has been on a methylation protocol for about 20 months, I can tell you that this is the trickiest issue. Like most, I had to start with crushing the folates and B12 and taking micro doses. I think I started out with using an eighth of a tablet, felt fine, then after 3 days was slammed into detox. So I stopped for a week and started the micro doses. This was fine and I worked up on the doses over several months till I was comfortable at the "full dose" of one quarter tablet of Folopro and Actifolate (used to be Intrinsi/B12/Folate till Metagenics changed the ingedients).

    This dose was fine for about a year with definite, steady (but manageable) detox. Then fairly suddenly this same dose started causing run-away detox and I had to take a break. The probable explanation is that methylation function was picking up and I was using the nutrients more efficiently, hence needing less. Lab tests confirmed a significant increase in methylation.

    So now I am back to practically grinding up the folates and B12 or cutting them into crumbs. I get the same reaction whether I use hydrox B12 or methyl B12--a little goes a very long way.

    I have not had the funds to keep doing urine checks to see what exactly is being detoxed, but I have been ill a very long time and am sure there is a lovely choice of toxins waiting in line at the several exit points. Genova's detoxification panel (10 months ago) did show compromised ability to detox.

    Though I don't know what is coming out, my body has regained the ability to sweat (hats off to FIR sauna!), and whatever it is, it stinks! That said, progressively I have felt better and am able to handle the more classic detox therapies much better.

    Many of us who have been on methylation therapy for a while are also wondering if we need to do something more to deal with heavy metals, and if so, what would be safe. There has been a lot of discussion of OSR in this light. So far, I am not risking any experimentation!

    Sushi

    jenbooks

    Sushi thanks for the insight. You say what comes out stinks? Reminds me of the Ron Hubbard approach to the 9/11 rescue workers--they'd go in the saunas, with their niacin, and out would come stinky stuff and weird colored stuff...

    I wouldn't try OSR myself that's for sure. It's too new. Either my body lets it go because it's gently stimulated or it doesn't let it go. If I force it I'll get sicker.

    mOJoey

    The CFS doc I just saw (that does biopuncture & photon-directed action) said the jury is still out on OSR. He feels there just isn't that much background information on the research behind it.

    I tried it, but it didn't work as well for me as I'd hoped. Tested poorly energetically as well.
    __________________
    http://pathogensoup.blogspot.com/
  6. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Lisa Replies to Detox Question

    Moved Posts to New Forum

    Lisa

    Hi Cort!

    I haven't a clue how to know if you cross the detox line - seemed like from day 1 I was crossing it so ended up confused by the whole thing. At a guess though, that line would be when the stuff you do during the day has ill feelings persists longer and longer. At some point you have to decide when that length of time is too much.

    We didn't do the methylation protocol that Rich Van K has laid out with specific supplements, but we did get the methylation cycle kick started. Sorry for the miscommunicating that. For about 18 months we had been on a NMDA calming and anti-oxidant program Dr. Grace Ziem posted on the web which was co-designed by Martin Pall. All the supplements we were using were cheaper brought individually from Vitacost and then adjusted to proper dosage here instead of going through a compounding pharmacy.

    Anywho! I ran across the b-12 deficiency forum two months ago and saw the list of supplements that Kevin and Freddd had put together. Turned out that we were already taking nearly everything listed except the b-12s and the methyl folate so we jumped right into it. After doing some further research into b-12s I ran across Rich's work with the methyl cycle and realized that for 18 months I had been taking everything for it also - except those b-12 and methyl folate.

    Rich's protocol calls for much smaller quantities of the methyl donors when starting the methylation cycle than Freddd's protocol suggests. As we were already supplementing the b-12 and methyl folate to Freddd's protocol quantities we stuck with that. Now I know we should have been going with Rich's quantities on these because things got turning on too fast and all the drains are clogged.

    Our first effects with the methyl b-12 was brain fogging with lozenge number 1 on a much grander scale than normal. This brain fogging continued to build to a full round the clock brain fog after only a couple days. I think this is the reason we persisted with the program for 5 weeks instead of calling a halt to it much soon. So that might be a good detox notifier - increased brain fog. At a guess, too many toxins mobilized by the b-12 coupled with too much new cellular activity with resulting toxic biproducts, equaled one fine toxic soup! mmmm. lol

    At this point we have removed the methyl folate as per suggestions on many methylation cycle posts and won't be adding it in until it feels like the detoxing has fully calmed to normal levels again. Will be adding in a small crumb of it at at some later point, but for now I am content to have just stopped feeling horrible all the time. All but a small fraction of methyl b-12 has been removed and we actually feel much better when using hydroxy b-12 instead. Will likely fully swap to the hydroxy when able.

    I hope this answered all the questions you asked - if not then keep asking and I'll try again! hehe
  7. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Mike Dessin on Detox, DMPS, B12

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    Mike

    I am one of those who could not detox in the slightest, was CBS upreg. My genetic testing clearly indicated detoxification issues.

    DMPS/DMSA--Took both of these in very small doses. I tried DMSA at 25mg the first day, literally thought I was gonna die. Second time I took 12mg in 4hour intervals as well, same thing. Never rebounded, same thing happened with DMPS in even lower doses.

    B-12-- Did a B-12 IV, combination of methyl/Hydro-- They had to help me find the door on the way out, the door was 20 feet away, straight in front of me. It absolutely crushed me.

    Tried the Yasko protocol at much smaller doses, just could not tolerate even the slightest of B-12 in any form.

    Tests indicated I had no B-12 in my system, before I started my current treatment. Doc never gave me any B-12 in his program, for some reason my cobalt levels are normal now?

    Doc DOES use a very small amount of DMPS every week with my neural therapy. Neural therapy alone, does induce a ton of detox, DMPS helps clean the blood after the neural therapy releases the mercury from the bones and organs, into the blood. Seems like a good combination.

    I still don't think I could have handled any of it, without acupuncture moving my lymphatic system before the treatments.

    I think B-12 is excellent for methylation, but at the level I was at, it literally would have taken a decade to get better taking such small portions of the B-12 if I could have tolerated it.

    I threw away huge trash bags of supplements not too long ago. I just stared at them for months, thinking that I would have to use them again, but that hasn't been the case. Doc told me this, but I just could not imagine life without those supplements.

    I guess, as your body starts working properly again, absorbing nutrients from food and so forth, the need for supplements disappears.

    I do take 3-4 supplements now...MSM to help clear mercury, DMAE for cognitive function, Glucosamine Sulfate to help repair the cells in my connective tissues and an estrogen balancer for over-production of estrogen.

    All of which I couldn't tolerate before my current therapy.

    Thanks

    Mike
  8. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Robin on Methylation

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    Robin

    Can we start a methylation thread?

    I started one called Yasko Methylation Nurtigenomics, but that title may be too specific.

    I have also started a methylation protocol. I am using the Yasko/Rich Vank protocol. I had already been taking B12 sublingual adenosyl, folinic acid, and phos serine. Have added more B12 hydroxy and a lot of it (one ful Perque, one drop of hydroxy form holistic heal and B12 spray). I wonder if I am in trouble now...

    Sliver of actifolate and 1/4 SAM-E, 1/2 tablet of HHC multi (with methione and TMG). 1/2 Bh4.

    Lots of pain today and need to urinate like when I have a cold, flu.

    Have been using chlorella before 2 meals and modifalin at bedtime. Yasko recommends EDTA and EDTA chelator complex. This is supposed to be enough to get metals released in bloodstream and not be harmful if one has amalgams. ??

    Do you know your COMT status?

    My sister kept saying it is all about the ANS.

    And energy healing is about the field as well (as seemingly she experienced). Dr. K talks about that.. ART test the field first. (which as amazing to see on his DVD series)

    That is amazing that your cobalt/B12 are now fine without direct intervention. (of B12)

    The neural therapy is a specific and efficient physical way to signal the body with energy signals. (as opposed to "energy healing" which could do the same thing, I am supposing, but not seeing it but on rare occasion)

    I just learned that KPU can be triggered by lead (block).. remove the lead (chemically or energetically) then you may need to replinish the zinc and B6 but not supplement for life.. that is if not genetic and then I am not sure where we can go with genetics. (thinking how removing blocks of different natures releasing "healing" )

    Robin

    Mike

    COMT +/- (-) In reading these, remember the + outweighs -

    EDTA is a mild mercury chelator, very good aluminum chelator. The only reason Yasko recommeds it, for those who can't tolerate sulfur, I was one of those, no sulfur and Ammonia. Never tried EDTA though.

    I'm not a doctor, but I guess once my--ANS/hypothalamus and Pituitary began functioning properly again, as well as, return of integrity of my cells. The bodies detox mechanisms started to work properly again.

    Who knows, I could be wrong, but I'm only repeating what doc tells me.

    Nina says it well below.

    Nina_Online

    Lisa,TTYe brain fog and better responce to hydroxy over methyl make wonder if you are COMT + (and therefore can't tolerate too many Methyl donors) and/or CBS + which means that too many methylation products go down the transulfuration pathway causing excess ammonia and hydrogen sulfide. If your other supps are methyl donors or sulphur based that would compound the problem.

    Nina
  9. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    I am so glad you started this thread at this opportune time because yesterday I went to see an American homeopathic woman here in Australia. I told her about Mikes story and I got a gruff response. She was insistent that to tell everyone on this board that they can get well doing plain old homeopathy to detox themselves from Mercury. I never ever beleived in homeopathy and I m learning to eat my words as I learn more about energy medicine.

    I have never had much belief in mercury being our problem and had to be pushed and shoved into seeing her. I have 2 friends very ill, mostly bedbound who have recovered significantly with her treatment of detoxing mercury with her method. I am a novice when it comes to understanding how mercury is involved. She it explained it this way to me.

    We had a health crisis...a big stress or some such thing....this lowered our immune system...viruses got in and flourished...But they can only flourish when they have mercury as a carrier to ride on the back of to sustain themelves. Viruses need Mercury to survive.....take it away and the body regenerates, viruse die off.

    Genetically we have weaker constitutions than our peers for this to happen or everyone who has mercury would have CFS. She said maybe some long past family memebr had TB for example and we have those weakened genes.

    Therefore you have to have an antidote to wipe mercury out. She believes in the slow way of doing it and it took my friend about 12 mths to notice the difference....another friend 6 mths.....both can now go outside and work in the garden and one volunteers at the dog pound one day a week.

    She does not think much of the neural therapy approach as she said the most effiecient way of absorbing homepathics is still under the tongue as it goes straight into circulation.

    I asked her about vaccinations causing Autism and she was adamant you have to have mercury in them to make them work to transfer a virus into the body to innoculate you. She believes they wont tell you there is mercury in there....they will find another fancy name for the transfer factor.
    Autistic children have been given a neurological shock to the brain she says. She said mothers can transfer their mercury to their babies.

    Mercury is the greatest wrecker of the hormone system she said and creates chaos in the body. That may explain why we are plugging dykes all the time with all our varied symptoms.

    My treatment:
    I have 3 lots of little white pills to take.....not every day.
    I have a powder to take a super chelator, which contains reiki mushroom spirulina, coral cay and other stuff and becomes a probiotic too.

    It has to be prepared in this way. In one litre of apple juice I put 1 tab of this Super Chel with 1/4 of a cup of Goji berries and a large knob of grated ginger. This mix I put in fridge for 2 days to ferment.

    After 2 days I pour half a glass and blend it up in the blender and to this I add real coconut milk...... yes I have to buy the real deal coconuts...get out the electric drill and drill 2 holes in the coconut and put about 2oo ml into the drink and drink it.....its green. The fermented mix lasts me 5 days.... the cost of her teatment a month will be $125. .....the Super Chel is $150 but lasts 2 mths and her visit and white pills is $5o.

    She reccomends you find yourselves a good homeopath and go with them as she has been curing people of all types of fatigue illnesses for years. She is not famous...lives way out in the back blocks, works out of a converted garage... but is of the old world type of healers.....spends all her time over books....studies them while you are there...devotes her life to healing and in no way into making big money out of sick people. She also has a Regenerative Light machine....a Laser type.

    My doctor who has CFS/FM and referred me, told me she is the only one who here can successfully detox.

    Now we will have to wait an see how I go.
    I will admit in the last month I have felt so well since I started but I had a session of Bodytalk and dont know which is making the difference. I have energy and made a cake one morning...amazing for me.

    Dont know if this is any help to anyone.....maybe give some of us hope who cant fly to the US or even have big money.
  10. Frickly

    Frickly Senior Member

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    Susan,

    Thanks for posting your experiences. I know little about homeopathy but would like to learn more. I just got my sons heavy metal toxicity test back and he has high levels of mercury and lead. We are going to do some more blood tests to make sure he is ready for chelation. I would be interested to see if I have high levels of mercury but my son comes first and there is only so much money to go around. I am glad we have this new thread and I will continue to read and learn.
  11. Michael Dessin

    Michael Dessin Senior Member

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    Susan

    Maybe you gotta gruff because I don't use straight homeopathics for mercury detoxification?

    I use homeopathics applied with Neural Therapy and DMPS/EDTA for mercury detox.

    Your naturopath is right in saying homeopathics can detox mercury alone, without any other intervention. She is wrong by saying under the tongue is more efficient than injections.

    She is also wrong by calling this a fatiguing illness. This is a devastating neuro-immune illness, ME, that is.

    If she is referring to the general CFS spectrum of illness, than fatiguing illness may apply.

    Also too, you might want to mention to her, my doc uses neural therapy with the homeopathics to correct my Neuro-Immune function. So the next time I get a mercury exposure, I won't get sick again. Then maybe she won't give you a gruff next time around.

    None the less, sounds like your on the right track.

    Thanks

    Mike
  12. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    If she's a classical homeopath then she will never be inclined towards the ways of Mike's doc.

    Somehow I don't think she could have rescued Mike. OTOH she may be a gifted healer.

    Mike, I don't understand how your doc can change your genetics. IE if you were born a poor methylator or perhaps poor APO genes for mercury detox. Can you explain a little more?
  13. Michael Dessin

    Michael Dessin Senior Member

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    Jenbooks

    You are correct!! Homeopathics alone, might not have been enough. My case was extremely severe, It took everything in the bag to bail me out.

    Genetic expression is constantly changing for better or worse.

    "Heal the methylation genes with detox - May take 8 years." Klinghardt


    Mike ;)
  14. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    Mike,
    She was referring to Post viral fatigue. EBV and CFS/FM and she reallly understands how devastating our illness is. However you know some people are died in the wool kind who believe in one view. If you slightlly move to the side and take a new angle on the same thing, they find you a heretic.

    I think this is what she meant.....if you are a homeopath....practice that only...dont try to change by injecting it. We would all beleive the world was flat if some one had not challenged and alternate view.

    My progress will be slower than yours for sure as that is how she likes it done but I am no where near where you were. I reallllly think that Bodytalk kinesology has spurted me on......sounds strange but I just suddenly got energy a few days later.

    There are 2 German DRS close by here who do neural therapy....might have chat to them.

    Better go and make my first jug of jungle juice.
  15. mojoey

    mojoey Senior Member

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    Robin

    May have pointed this out earlier, but what bothers me about Klinghardt is that he believes those of us with bad detox genes are essentially "screwed." I think he may have actually used such word choice in his DVDs. maybe that means he thinks we'll need to be on supplements forever. I wonder what his take on epigenetics is.

    However, I wouldn't be surprised to see neural therapy-type therapies have a profound effect on genetic expression. As mike alluded to, genetic expression is always changing. Genes themselves are not. These can change via signals from the field (photon therapy), chemical signals (cheney's cell signaling factors, changing the fight-or-flight response via ANS), emotional work (NET is my most recent experiment in this department).

    I did the full methylation protocol for about 1.5 years...I do not feel that it helped me detox significantly. Still continuing the simplified supplements.
  16. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Having written about this here is my take on this.

    1) Genes can be switched on or off or upregulated or downregulated by environmental influences. This could range from an exposure in the womb to later in life viruses toxins or good things like hugs and kisses from your parent.

    2) Genes can also be upregulated or downregulated through environment especially diet. Thus for example there are diets that promote inflammation and those that don't.

    3) However, some of this switching on and off, which is mediated through methylation, can be permanent from the studies I've seen. Thus, exposure in the womb through the mother's exposure to endocrine disrupters (such as pesticides and plastics) can permanently alter the way mammary and sexual glands develop, stimulating them too much at a crucial stage of development and rendering offspring permanently more vulnerable to cancer especially later in life. An example being babies born to mothers who were given the hormone DES supposedly to prevent miscarraige--later in life they had more reproductive problems, more cervical cancer etc. And for example when rat pups are not groomed as babies, they have a permanently raised stress response. Their cortisol spike will be upregulated permanently. One could reason that nature figures if the mom can't groom/care for the pup properly, perhaps the environment is tough--an an anxious hyperalert rat will survive better. Whatever the reason that's the case and it does not change.And on another note breastfeeding can protect babies with polymorphisms that would seem to render them more susceptible to strep throat--and permanently protect them so they basically don't get those infections. And it goes on and on. In early development particularly, influences can be permanent.

    4) And if you don't HAVE a gene or have a mutation such as Freddd with his B12's, then you can't "make" that gene appear. If your polymorphisms are such that you don't detox mercury well, I don't think you can change the polymorphisms or make one behave like another. If you take away a terrible body burden (such as mercury or pathogens) then your polymorphisms, which would be adequate under normal conditions but not under added toxic or infectious stress, should function okay. But I'd think you might need maintenance treatments for re-exposures, and/or be very careful to try to avoid such again.

    5) On the other hand, there is homeopathy's concept of miasms--and they are probably real. If you take a constitutional remedy you can apparently correct the energetic burden of your ancestors' illnesses and problems, which you are carrying as miasms. This doesn't really jibe with any of the above and is not equivalent to epigenetic influences imo. So maybe that is working on another level entirely, or maybe that is a force operating in our lives that regular medicine doesn't understand. For instance suppose you had a syphilitic miasm strong in your family--would that make you more vulnerable to ticks with lyme (I speculate this about myself). Would you walk around with the energetic frequency, emotional spiritual and physical, of syphilis vibrating? Would a tick carrying lyme be drawn to you like a moth to flame--? If you had cleared that miasm would you walk right past the tick? And the tick would ignore you? Who knows. That gets pretty woo woo.
  17. Michael Dessin

    Michael Dessin Senior Member

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    jenbooks

    Lots of good info, and questions.

    Mike
  18. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Mercury Detox Using Clay

    Hi All,

    I'm feeling a bit cognitively challenged this morning, but thought I'd add a couple of comments about mercury detox. I myself have been doing clay foot baths for about 2-3 years now, and feel they have helped me (safely) detox some of my mercury load. I first learned about them at a website company called http://www.evenbetternow.com/.

    This company was founded by a woman who claims to have used her described protocols to recover from CFS and then sometime later, interstitial cystitis. I have found her website to be quite a treasure trove of information regarding heavy metal detoxification and how important it is when addressing any kind of neurological disorder.

    She is also a big believer in using far infrared (FIR) saunas to assist with heavy metal detox. My own sauna experience in the past several weeks is indicating to me that this will be an important tool in my own detoxification efforts.

    BTW Jenbooks, I love woo woo. :)

    Best, Wayne
  19. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    :) Wayne, I tend to love woo woo too! I have to be careful to keep my rational meter running so as not to be lured into woo woo that is actually too woo!

    Sushi
    Wayne likes this.
  20. Lisa

    Lisa Senior Member

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    Hello Nina! It is nice to meet you. :)

    First, what does TTYe mean? I am not familiar with the slang. :) Thanks!

    After reading some of these posts, I have also been wondering about my COMT+ value. It would certainly explain the negative reaction my body had to the extra methyl donor. I think you are right, CBS upregulation was a factor too. At some point early in starting the methyl b-12, I found a number of posts suggesting molybdenum could help with a nasty headache I was starting to have every night if it was from CBS upregulation.

    Sure enough! I started supplementing with 150 mg (or maybe mcg?) of molybdenum and had relief very shortly thereafter. Its another one of those 'face palm' moments during that whole 5 weeks. That brain fog was really nasty and prevented me from seeing I needed to stop much sooner instead of working to fix symptoms as they sprung up.

    Tomorrow I think I will fully go back to the hydroxy b-12 and give the extra bottles of methyl b-12 to a friend. I don't want to be tempted to try that experiment again! yikes!

    Lisa :)

    p.s. I'm just starting to get into the Woo Woo with EFT. I think I like having a little woo around! hehe :D

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