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Methylation, Vitamin D intolerance-- biochemical interactions?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Jimk, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Rifampin accelerates vitamin D metabolism. It may also interact with other stuff.
    Have you tested for both 25D and 1,25D? That abx can create an imbalance. It did that to me.


    PS: If you're fighting CPn you may want to look into magnesium and bacterial resistance.
  2. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Yes rifampin icreases our body needs for vitamin D, so supplemention is recommended in case we are on rifampin long term, but I also had much stronger reaction to D when I was on rifampin.

    Regarding adrenals Dr. Wilson recommends to supplement nutrients at first and take adrenal extracts as a last resort.
    Here is very good thread about mending adrenals:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...ASTICALLY-improved&highlight=mending adrenals

    Xrunner what is with magnesium and bacterial resistence? I have only read about magnesium contributing to biofilms.
  3. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi Crux, Hyperpigmentation, that makes things interesting and narrow down the options a lot, Addisons (adrenal Insufficiency) comes in three different kinds Primary, secondary and tertiary, you get hyperpigmentation with primary because the lack of cortisol produced by the adrenals causes increased ACTH production which causes the hyperpigmentation.

    Your test results say low cortisol and low ACTH which under normal circumstances rules out primary Addisons which causes the Hyperpigmentation, however because you had been taking cortisol replacement, which can cause the Pituitary to stop making as much ACTH this may be the reason for that test result, so we cant be too sure. What the different tests for Adrenal insufficiency mean is explained in the chart on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_insufficiency and there is more information about Addisons here http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1096911-clinical

    All your symptoms hyperpigmentation, vomiting, diarrhea, fainting, low blood pressure, headaches, weight lose, fatigue etc are all symptoms of Addisons, it can progress very slowly and has a lot of symptoms, you have also probably had a B12 folate deficiency before then as well, tends to be a consequence of a Vegan life style. Could be caused by celiac have you been checked for it? But a high MCV can mean a lot of things see http://en.diagnosispro.com/differen...scular-volume-lab-increased/10439-154-10.html

    The casues of Hyperpigmentation and low cortisol are listed here http://en.diagnosispro.com/differen...rtisol-lab-decreased/33941_11102-154_153.html

    I have a strong feeling that the answer to your problem is that your endocrinologist has skipped a few steps in your diagnosis and has just assumed that your adrenal insufficiency is the auto immune variety; there are many different causes of it.

    So going back to what causes a bad reaction to Vitamin D, and also causes Adrenal Insufficiency, answer Sarciodosis and tuberculosis.

    The article above lists causes of Addisons as

    Causes of acute adrenal insufficiency are mainly Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome, sudden withdrawal of long-term corticosteroid therapy and stress in patients with underlying chronic adrenal insufficiency.[10] The latter is termed critical illnessrelated corticosteroid insufficiency.

    For chronic adrenal insufficiency, the major contributors are autoimmune adrenalitis, tuberculosis, AIDS and metastatic disease.[10] Minor causes of chronic adrenal insufficiency are systemic amyloidosis, fungal infections, hemochromatosis and sarcoidosis.[10]

    Autoimmune adrenalitis may be part of Type 2 autoimmune polyglandular syndrome, which can include type 1 diabetes), hyperthyroidism, autoimmune thyroid disease (also known as autoimmune thyroiditis, Hashimoto's thyroiditis and Hashimoto's disease).[11] Hypogonadism and pernicious anemia may also present with this syndrome.

    Adrenoleukodystrophy can also cause adrenal insufficiency.[12]

    Adrenal Insufficiency can also be caused when a patient has a Craniopharyngioma which is a benign tumor that can damage the Pituitary gland causing the Adrenal Glands not to function. This would be an example of Secondary Adrenal Insufficiency Syndrome.

    I think that you probably do have adrenal insuficiency but that it is not the usual auto immune type and that your various health professionals have leapt to the conclusion that this is what it is and started treating it (oops)

    You need to find the cause of the adrenal insufficiency and get that treated as well as the adrenal insufficiency, if you are to get better. Sarcoidosis and tuberculosis are possibilities because they damage adrenal function and cause bad reactions to vitamin D and you have been exposed to TB so it is possible, but all possibilities for your failing adrenal glands need to be ruled out such as Hemochromatosis (iron overload) as this can destroy adrenals and cause hyperpigmentation.

    I know what you mean about not liking doctors, but for all these conditions you need to have a doctor investigating them, you may want to get a second opinion from a different endocrinologist as the one you have seen doesnt seem to have ruled everything out so far. Have you been tested for aldostorone? Adrenal failure often causes a lack of this and it has to be replaced for people to feel better.

    As I see it you have hyperpigmentation which rules out ME as it is not a symptom of it, although some studies of ME have shown reduced levels of cortisol, levels are not majorly low in ME, your s have been <1 which shows an almost total failure to produce cortisol which also makes me think this is not ME.

    If you can find someone who will spend the time to go through all the possible causes of your failed adrenal results, strange reactions to vitamin D, hyperpigmentation and other symptoms then I think there is a very good chance of them being able to find the cause of all your problems and give you the right treatment.

    It can be difficult to find a good doctor though and you may have to try several, it helps to always take a support person with you, to write out all your symptoms, and the history of your disease, your family history of illness especially the history of TB, what meds your on, and what tests you have failed, and to print out all information from the net that shows why you want testing for certain conditions, if its from reputable medical sources then doctors will read it and understand. It takes a bit of effort to prepare properly to see doctors, but can make a big difference to the results of the appointment. Be nice to them and understand that most of them have big egos and generally dont like alternative medicine so dont mention it and you should be OK.

    Hope you get things sorted soon!!!

    All the best
  4. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi rlc;

    I hope this astonishing amount of research you have done hasn't depleted any of your vital energy. I'm humbled....

    I have, in the past, tried to figure out the etiology of my conditions, but became focused on the B12 def. in this past year, because the symptoms had become so crippling. I finally listened to what my body had been telling me in every possible way.

    It's interesting that the B12 has really improved many functions, and that some test results have proven this pretty well. For instance, thyroid function has improved. T3 increased well into the normal range. Also, hemoglobin and hematocrit have been high many times, but were in normal range last checked. I suspect alot of the hyperpigmentation was due to the B12 def., and that I probably had an iron metabolism disturbance. ( I didn't have ferritin checked.)

    You're right that I should persue the causes again, because it may even be helpful to some relatives. Part of what motivates me is that my brother and sister experienced an unexplained sudden death. I've had to study some of their records to try to figure this out. The pathologists detected very little that was abnormal about them, but one noted that my sister's corpus lutea, ( produces progesterone, then cortisol), and one of her adrenal glands had hemorrhaged. We three had similar symptoms to varying degrees.

    I do appear to have a polyglandular condition. The thyroid is more stable now. Parts of the pituitary are improving.TSH used to fluctuate between .3-4.5 Although I'm still hyogonadic,(female type), testosterone has increased. It appears that the B12 has caused this.

    The MRI showed no masses or lesions. The Endo does test certain hormones, but not others that may indicate the specific weakness. He checks renin activity but not aldosterone. I'll ask for an aldosterone test. The renin activity is low normal, but I've read that aldosterone may be concurrently low. The Endo only tests IGF-1, but I've also read that GH should be checked, because the status of one doesn't always indicate the other. My IGF-1, incidently, is really high. That usually indicates acromegaly, but I don't have symptoms. It may also indicate cancer or liver trouble. It's possible, too that zinc def. is involved. We'll see.

    I will seek some more tests now that I'm feeling stronger. The TB one looks applicable. I'm so very grateful to you, rlc. I hope that this discussion in some way informs folks helpfully. I do learn alot from reading posts here.....I believe this site is brilliant, and that it represents the future of medicine, if I may be so bold...
  5. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but I have the exact same problem with vit D including severe fatigue, terrible brain fog like I've never before experienced, and depressed thoughts after taking it. It's very noticeable and directly correlated to my vit. D consumption. I notice it with low (200) as well as higher doses (2000+).
  6. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I haven't begun supplementing with zinc but I did notice a drastic difference in my ability to tolerate sunlight after taking vit. D. Before taking it I was shutting the blinds every day because the light bothered me so much, now I'm going outside and actively seeking the sun because my body seems to be craving it.
  7. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean;

    I would suggest that you read rlc's posts on this thread and others concerning vitamin D. rlc's understanding of vitamin D is scholarly, in my opinion.
  8. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thanks Crux, I've gotten feedback from Ric on this topic also. But I still can't figure out why vit. D could cause immediate depressed mood and thoughts after one dose or so. (Unless, you wrote something on that, Ric, that I missed?) My only guess was low magnesium but it still seems odd for it to happen so strongly and so quickly. I'm supplementing magnesium as much as I'm able but it doesn't help. I think low magnesium can cause depressed mood but I"m not sure how common that is. What is causing the fatigue a few hours after I take it and the terrible brain fog, I really don't know. I may have to try to figure out how to get magnesium injections and see if that helps. Aside from all that I checked out parathyroid on Ric's recommendation and was fine there, and will ask about a few other things like scardiosis when I next see a rheumatologist or other doctor.
  9. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean;

    I too have had trouble with both vitamin D and magnesium supplementation. I understand the frustration because they are recommended for so many conditions, including CFS.

    Usually, if someone cannot tolerate these supps., it may indicate a liver/kidney problem, and that is true for me. But I also suspect that in my case,a zinc deficiency is involved. I'm testing it on myself now. I'ts been 7wks., and I'm noticing many improvments, but I'm still having some symptoms that I'm attributing to detox effects. I figure that it could take some time for the zinc to make repairs.

    One symptom of sarcoidosis is that of high levels of vitamin D detected in the blood serum. So it may be possible to rule that out with a test for vitamin D levels that a practitioner could order for you.

    What I'm trying now, is to slowly increase some time in the sun and to slowly add small amounts of vitamin D supps. There are vitamin D creams available that I haven't tried, but I have made a concoction by combining a gel cap of vit.D with some drops of DMSO, a potent solvent, to make a transdermal oil. I don't have a conclusion yet, But I haven't had a negative effect either.

    I also make magnesium oil, using a 50/50 mix of magnesium chloride flakes and warm filtered water. I do have good effects when I apply magnesium oil transdermally. If the skin is sensitive, it may sting a little, so someone could apply a "barrier coat of oil first. I usually use castor oil, but a good quality coconut oil also works well.
  10. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thanks Crux. I don't have high vit. D levels so maybe that at least partly rules out scardiosis. I do use transdermal magnesium but notice magnesium deficiency symptoms whenever I take vit. D, things like restless leg that previously I'd fixed through magnesium, so I'm guessing I'm not getting enough of it to keep me at a good level while on vit. D. I saw this interesting article on C reactive protein actually increasing with vitamin D, I wonder if that explains any of our symptoms.
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9902E0DC1431F934A25752C0A9649D8B63
    How did you find out about your liver/kidney problems, blood tests? My urologist has said I don't present with kidney issues, I'm not sure about liver though.
    I didn't know vitamin D would work transdermally. I wonder if getting it that way would decrease side effects for me. Since my side effects aren't just GI ones like they are with magnesium, I'm not sure it would prevent the same effects by getting it through skin. I too am trying to get sun on the days it's out there and am still taking vit. D some days but those days I basically become nonfunctional so I am doing it like once or twice a week right now. I will give zinc a try too, thanks for mentioning it. Can zinc deficiency (or deficiency of any of the vit. D cofactors) cause depressed thoughts?
  11. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean;

    This is so difficult...Even when we work with so many specialists and do so much testing...we still have problems. I figure my body is trying to tell me something, but that I need to listen better.

    With liver and kidney trouble, I learned from reading a bit about traditional chinese medicine that many conditions originate there. I believe there's truth in that. I've had alot of pain in the areas over the years. In blood tests, I've only had an increase in creatinine once, not much. I had an increase in the liver enzyme ALT once, and that was when I was having trouble with vitamin D.

    One time,I was having so much kidney pain, I was certain that it was a stone. I went for a CT scan. The report was that the kidney area was unremarkable, but a liver lesion was detected....plus a small hiatal hernia. It's strange this pain. I figured out later that the HCL I had taken for years was causing pain. Now I have to moderate my acid intake.

    Thanks for the link, this again tells us that we must figure out what works for us as individuals.

    With the restless legs, it may be that more potassium is needed. Freddd has written that some people have found that they needed more K when taking D.

    I've only been "messing about" with trying vitamin D transdermally. I'll look into it more.

    I'm investing alot of hope in Zinc. It is helping very much with anxiety and depression. I had some good belly laughs while watching television last night.

    If you're considering trying it, it's probably good to begin low and slow. If there's been a deficiency, there could also be a build up of other metals that have filled in for zinc. Oftentimes, there could be extra copper, and even cadmium around. Some researchers recommend that the detox may be easier if one takes a zinc supplement that contains copper. I've taken jarrow's opti-zinc, and found it to be effective. I also take new chapters zinc food complex, it doesn't have copper. It's very effective.

    In the first few weeks, I did have some uncomfortable symptoms: metallic taste, mild moderate headaches, mild/moderate nausea, intermittent anxiety , increased fatigue, insomnia. I've read that these effects may be heavy metals detox. These effects have gotten much much milder in time. But I did push things by having some higher dosages and by not having copper in the supp. I think someone else may have less side effects by taking lower dosages. If 15 mgs. daily brings strong detox, then a lower amount could be considered.

    I'm at 30 mgs. zinc daily now. Many people take more or less daily than this. Again, not only is it hard to figure out what to take, but how much and how often. I hope this is helpful.
    Sparrowhawk likes this.
  12. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thanks for your thoughts Crux. Interesting about the hiatal hernia, I have that also. I ordered some zinc and will try it in small amounts when I get it. I really hope it will help with the depressed mood that D seems to bring me. Hopefully it will arrive soon. It's good to hear you're having some success with it in that area.

    When you say more K/potassium might be needed, is that K2 or something else?
  13. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean;

    When I wrote K, I meant potassium. I'm trying to learn to be more specific...I've a way to go.

    After I wrote to you, I worried that my long list of temporary effects may have been off putting. I think many people won't have these issues, but since I did, I felt I should include them. I think my deficiency has been life long, possibly genetic.

    I think that your careful and methodical method is wise.

    I am having excellent results with zinc, lifting of depression is occurring. There are other good things happening. It may be some more months before I am able to see full benefits, but my sleep is improving, gut function improving, skin quality, etc.

    I wonder if zinc may be involved with folate tolerance. I've read that they act together in various functions. I increased folate yesterday. I'm still trying to find that amount needed. I'm having to rely on symptoms.

    With hiatal hernias, although they're very common, they're unnecessary. Zinc is reputed to help heal numerous lesions and ulcerations, so along with other good practices, it could help. Although I didn't feel much pain from the hernia before, I'm feeling none now. I know it doesn't work alone, but if it's missing, the body has a difficult time healing.
  14. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    It's good to hear of your improvement Crux. I am a bit scared of the zinc (got it today) because I've noticed lately anything with the potential to cause insomnia does so in me and I read zinc may do so due to some issue with copper. I will start very slow but am going to wait a while till I have some time to get back to a more normal sleep. All the supplements I've tried that have been too stimulating for me have been messing up the improved sleep I've been getting with D. Is potassium safe to take or should I check with a doctor? For some reason I thought that might be one of the ones that isn't always safe to take on your own? I am going to start with bananas till I learn more. Thank you for all your input.
  15. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean;

    Discovering a way to sleep is the best. I know of some other people who now sleep well because of vitamin D. I sat in the sun today. Maybe there'll be good sleep tonight.

    It looks like a good idea to be cautious. Although zinc is very calming, copper can be a stimulant. I take it in the morning or early afternoon.

    Potassium can also be calming, but it relieves fatigue at the same time. I understand the hesitation to supplement it. To try to put it in perspective, even magnesium is slightly more toxic than potassium. I agree though that it's best to get it in the diet if you can. There are many foods that are high in potassium. Some of my favorites are; butternut squash, beans, blackstrap molasses, and some seaweeds.

    But I do supplement because sometimes I can't eat the quantity of food to get enough. It's recommended that taking between 250-500 mgs. at a time should not be a problem for most people unless they have renal failure or untreated adrenal failure.

    Meantime though, it looks like you're making great progress with the vitamin D. This is good news!
  16. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Crux, do you ever get tingling in your body after taking vit. D? I'm guessing it's another sign of maybe D depleting some other nutrient or something. I hate that it has such good effects but so many undesirable ones too that are hard to figure out! Trail and error.... I will probably give the potassium a try next, starting in low doses as always.
  17. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean;

    I don't remember having nerve tingling associated with vitamin D intake. I did have nerve tingling from B12 deficiency. Maybe the vit. D increases absorption of calcium, which could irritate injured nerves? I'm not sure if you are taking B12 now, but B12 def. could be a possibility. B12 also helps with calcium absorption, but it is most protective of the nerves. I found that even though I now eat B12 rich foods, I also have some sort of condition that involves an increased need for it. I take a 5mg. sublingual of jarrow's methyl-B12 every day.
  18. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thanks Crux maybe I'll start B12 soon. But the tingling is definitely related to taking D so if anything calcium seems more likely to be related I guess. The D shouldn't be affecting my B12 levels, right?
  19. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean;

    I haven't found a direct relationship between vitamin D and B12, but it could exist. But trouble with vitamin D supplementation may indicate a disturbance with calcium metabolism. Calcium needs alot of guidance, and from what I'm trying to learn about it, so many things need to be available and in balance for it to be properly placed in the body.

    It's possible that the nerve tingling indicates more than one thing. It could be that more B12 is needed to heal nerves, and that the calcium needs some more guidance. For myself, the zinc appears to be a cofactor that has been missing in the process of calcium metabolism.
  20. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    [quote=" Freddd has written that some people have found that they needed more K when taking D.[/quote]

    Very good point. I am one of those people who can tolerate D if I take enough K.

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