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methylation: VERY low, very slow.....results

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by determined, Apr 22, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Therron,

    Perhaps you could consider a different theory or step up your titration until it doers start making a difference. TMG for at least some people relieves the wired feeling. It does for me and others.
  2. therron

    therron

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    I'm wondering how my ratios look. Before titrating up, should I adjust?
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Therron,

    The entire method I use for making corrections is based on having a degree of effectivenss that can be adjusted rather than shooting blind. You may find that a 5mg Jarrow (1mg absorbed) and 4800mcg of Metafolin make all the difference in the world. The one ratio I have seen is that adb12:mb12 should be in the range of 1:10 to 1:3. Pragmatic results appear to bear that out. So inctreasing your mb12 to 10 mg sublingual would put you in the middle of that. You would need at least 2400 mcg of Metafolin (in my opinion) to support the mb12 and adb12.
  4. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Not to bud in on Therron, but if I'm taking 6 5mg Jarrows/day, (30mg), 1 Source Naturals Ab12 every 3rd day and 1200mcg Metafolin daily, my ratios are ALL wrong? I'm guessing I should increase my MF big time. I'm taking 6 Mb12's/day because when I first started, it seemed like the more I took the better I felt. But I'm crashing every couple of days now.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    I have seen no down side to having less adb12 as long as it makes no immediate respopnse when you take it. In my experience 10mg a day to 3mg/week are indistinguishable. That indicates to me that you would be maintaining sufficient adb12 to fill the mitochondria. More does no good of which I am aware and when it is a lot too much the ratio sensitive CNS nerves complain but appears reversable almost as soon as you notice it and take action.

    The crashing can be any of several things needed and you haven't given me sufficient info to know what one or ones might be more likely; potassium, l-carnitine fumarate, Alpha Lipoic acid, D-ribose and probably a few other things.
  6. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd.

    I made a few adjustments: Cut Mb12 to 2-3 Jarrows/day; maintain Ab12 @ 1 Source Naturals every 3rd day; increased Metafolin to 2400 mcg/day, divided doses - this last step has made the most difference, (a small, but noticeable difference). I guess I'll keep trying to increase MF, then.

    I'm also working on getting the l-carnitine fumarate, not easy in Canada - I have to go over to NY state and bring it back and I haven't been well enough to do so.

    My calves are in a constant state of near-cramping - does this indicate low potassium? I tried upwards of 1200mg/day, but still have the tensed muscle sensation in my calves, (like they are "pumped" from exercise). In fact, I think the sensation might have gotten worse when I increased pot., but this may be coincidence.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    increased Metafolin to 2400 mcg/day, divided doses - this last step has made the most difference, (a small, but noticeable difference). I guess I'll keep trying to increase MF, then.

    Finding something that makes a difference can make all the difference. You now have an aiming point. After the mb12 ran out of "difference" I added adb12 which made a difference and so on. I kept going after increments. The only reason I stayed on the glutathione precursors is that they made a difference. However, after 6 weeks I could see it was going the wrong direction. When the same thing happened with folinic acid it took me only several weeks to notice that it was the wrong direction. Then I could see it with folic acid and then finally vegetable food folate in only a few days. Learning to see differences is important. Then one can see directions too after learning. Even after you can't see differences, the healing continues if you keep the things going.

    The old adage was that supplements don't make differences one can see. The AMA called the differences that some people could see with cyanocbl as "placebo" effect and cracked down on doctors who gave it to people because they could feel improvement instead of following up on that and finding out why they had improvment. When I had the huge response to mb12 I said "I need to learn how to make that placebo effect reliable". When I gave it to 1000 people with a questionaire of symptoms and 50% had noticeable effects within 2 hours, I knew it wasn't placebo as only people with symptoms had any effects.
  8. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    Did I read that correctly -- are you not able to tolerate food sources of folate? That's certainly unusual...did this just come on recently? How do you manage that?

    Dan
  9. HTree

    HTree

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    Hi All,
    I am new to the methylation idea. I have taken bvitamins in various forms...
    Is there a thread that concisely explains:
    Rich's approach
    Fredd's approach

    Exactly what to do, the doses, and what indicates/suggests a PWCFS to try this? (I mean specifically do certain subgroups of us tend to do better with this protocol?
    And have these ideas been brought to the attention/approved by any of the CFS/ME "guru" docs (Klimas, etc)?

    THANKS SO MUCH! This is a time and energy saver for me... thank you thank you.

    Peace
    HTree
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, HTree.

    You can find my documents on the Phoenix Rising General Wiki pages: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/forumdisplay.php?91-General-Wiki-Pages

    There's a directory to the documents in the first part I posted. You can read as much or as little as you would like. The test panel I recommend and the protocol I have suggested are at the end.

    Yes, I have "beaten on" the "guru" docs mercilessly for some years:angel:but pretty much to no avail so far. Most don't seem to get it. I will say that Dr. David Bell was the one who first asked me for a treatment based on the hypothesis I presented in 2007. But he pretty much retired before he was able to try it, though he has sort of bounced back again lately. Dr. Enlander is on board with methylation treatment, and is using his own protocol. Dr. Myhill has used it on some patients. There is a growing number of "non-guru" docs who are incorporating methylation treatment in their protocols now. They may end up being new gurus. :D

    Best regards,

    Rich
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    are you not able to tolerate food sources of folate?

    I appear to be unable to utilize vegetable food source folate. I can however utilize meat source folate.

    did this just come on recently? How do you manage that?

    After going therough the glutathione trial I learned what a specific severe folate deficiency was like. Then I identified that I was going in and out of folate deficiency and had for my entire life. I first identified folinic acid when I tried it because of something Rich had written, he made a good case for it. The folate deficiency symptoms came on slowly but surely. Then I discontinued that and I discovered that depending upon how much Metafolin I took with my meals and b-complex I either went into folate deficiency or came out of it. I experimented with doses and timing for several months and made sure it was the folic acid. Then after discontinuing all folic acid things generally cleared up except whenI ate "too much" (relative) dark green leafies several days in a row and voila! folate deficiency. So, if I take at least 1600mcg of Metafolin with the meals and a total of 8800mcg daily and have only one meal a day including folate rich veggies, I can stay out of deficiency. With folic acid if I took 2400mcg at each meal having 400mcg of folic acid and 3 other doses without food I could also usually stay out of folate deficiency. Also there is no problem if I avoid folate containing veggies which I tried for a week. I can induce paradoxical folate deficiency at will with vegetables. It was a matter of peeling back each layer in turn. It's been a lifelong problem I just recognized in the past few months.
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Wow. That is definitely PARADOXICAL. Must be frustrating, but I suppose you're past that stage by now.

    I'm dealing with a possible copper toxicity/overload issue and trying to sort that out with the help of an expert in that field, but will be working on adding methyl-folate very soon. I tried it a few times (during the last 3 months) and was reacting to so many different things it was hard to sort out, but I THINK that it actually helped give me a tiny sense of natural hunger pains (???) that I haven't had in 6-7-8 years. This hypochloridia (sp) is also most definitely connected with the copper/zinc imbalance, so hopefully can get it sorted out soon.

    Take care Fred,

    d.
  13. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd.

    I think that your body's intolerance for vegetable-based folate is very interesting (and probably pretty unusual). Given that you have found that your body is intolerant to the folinic acid form of folate, I'm wondering if it is the folinic acid fraction in vegetables that is the problematic form. I note that folinic acid is present in vegetables in addition to methylfolate. According to H. Martin et al. (PMID: 20361923), folinic acid constitutes a significant fraction of the total folate in lettuce, spinach, carrots and peppers. Do you know whether these particular vegetables are more problematic to you than others?

    Best regards,

    Rich
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I think that your body's intolerance for vegetable-based folate is very interesting (and probably pretty unusual).

    I agree, probably pretty unusual. It is unusual enough that the docs called me names, from liar to hypochondriac to "conversion disorder" instead of considering the possibility I was describing something real. I know of one possible indicator. There are two distinct schools of thought on a phenominon known approximately as the "xxx year vegetarian crash" with xxx = 7 AND xxx = 20. Assuming (there is that very dangerous word) that the 2 numbers might represent 2 different things makes a lot of sense. The assumption is that they are both about vegetarian caused b12 deficincy and for some reason there is a fast and a slow version, which might be correct. However, as the universe of b12 deficiency symptoms includes the universe of folate deficiency symptoms as a subset they are more or less indistinguisable to most except that with b12, symptoms other than folate deficiency symptoms almost always shows up too. However, as some literature has remarked, b12 deficiency always shows up if folate deficiency goes on long enough. That breadth of symptoms is a hallmark characteristic of b12 deficiency. I had the 7 year vegetarian crash. This started as a severe flu like illness which my wife had too. She recovered after about 6 months. I didn't start to improve until after starting methylb12 16 years later. By 20 years I was rapidly approaching the total vegetarian crash, death.

    I'm wondering if it is the folinic acid fraction in vegetables that is the problematic form. I note that folinic acid is present in vegetables in addition to methylfolate. According to H. Martin et al. (PMID: 20361923), folinic acid constitutes a significant fraction of the total folate ...

    That is what I have suspected since I came to the realization of the problem but hadn't been able to locate the types of folate in vegetables.


    folinic acid constitutes a significant fraction of the total folate in lettuce, spinach, carrots and peppers. Do you know whether these particular vegetables are more problematic to you than others?

    I eat about 3 pounds of carrots a week, about 2-3 heads of romaine, red-romaine and redleaf lettace a week, perhaps 2-3 pounds of spinich per week when chard is not available from the garden and occasional sweet bell peppers plus a variety of other vegetables regularly. I have yellow crook-necked squash coming out my ears at the moment and the first of the really fresh sweet corn is avaialble now and fresh berries daily from the garden currently. It's hard to say whether the specified ones are worse because I eat one or more virtually every day. I tend to have a big salad, filling and very satisfying chewing, before the rest of the meal which helps control how much I eat.

    When I eat vegetarian meals with any regularity I get the same IBS I know I get with paradoxical folate deficiency. I normally eat fish/meat only once a day anyway and then not a lot. Last night I had salmon, summer squash, chard, sweet corn and mixed whole grain bread.
  15. therron

    therron

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    Hi Freddd,
    I recently crashed on the protocol with symptoms including increased histamine, anxiety, insomnia. The month before the crash marked the best sleep I've had for 10 years........so I thought I was on the right track (muscles issues, however did not improve). I haven't been able to figure out where the crash came from, but am now considering your vegetable folate theory. It it high season in my garden, and therefore, my vegetable consumption has increased greatly. I also can look back and see that my initial crash came 7 years after going gluten free, which increased my veggie consumption greatly. Hmmmmm.....if this is the case, then would it be wise to increase methylfolate dosages?
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Therron,

    The vegatable folate problem is a pragmatic observation. The theory is in describing why it might occur. I have reduced it to practice and can predictably cause it and put it in remission. The question comes down to "how rare is it?" The symptoms certainly points in that direction. What I had to do to overcome it while still eating more moderate amounts of veggies, and I am feeling my way here and still don't have it down too well just how much is too much, is to take 1600-2400mcg of Metafolin at each meal and 3 doses of 1600-2400mcg of metafolin first thing in the morning before food, mid-day without food and evening several hours after eating so again on an empty stomach. At that things work but are close to the edge and so far I have had occasional slips. Sometimes I have to go without veggies for two days to clear out the wrong folate enough to get these things healing. When it flips over you should know it pretty quickly depending upon how quickly you can notice the symptoms changing. It takes longer at first because without some repititions one does not recognize the earliest signs of it. Good luck.
  17. therron

    therron

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    Hi Freddd,
    I was having such a difficult time with histamine, anxiety, and insomnia, that I threw myself a curve ball......and it worked! Based on the assumption that my veggie intake had hugely increased, possibly being one aggravation to my system, I decided to try an entire dose of Solgar Metafolin (800 mcg). I took the tablet at around 4:00 pm. By the time I went to bed, I felt like my symptoms were improving remarkably. The next morning, I took another 800 mcg. and continued to feel better. I was able to work all day at my very high energy job without feeling the typical "tightened stress". After two days, I am now sleeping very well and feeling much more focused, stress-free, and energetic. This is quite fantastic, since I have always had to operate "low and slow" due to overreactions from miniscule doses of supplements, medications, and foods. I've been trying cofactors for 2 years, and it appears that my most critical factor was folate. I know that I will have to continue to refine, but this is my first real progress. Thanks for all of the information you provide.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Therron,

    Very interesting. Excellent that you are now making progress on this. Also, as your symptoms are different from mine in some regards, you off some more clues for others. Would you list ALL the symptoms that have changed now that you have identified this paradoxical folate deficiency in yourself. This "stress" symptom is not one I had, at least not quickly enough to attribute it to the folate deficiency. Others may show up over the next weeks and those will need to be posted with a full updated list. Thankyou.
  19. therron

    therron

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    Hi Freddd,
    As far as recent symptoms, these were started by an herb that I tried from my acupuncturist. I'm ultra-sensitive to supplements of all kinds. I do not typically have anxiety. I have had occasional periods of high histamine my entire life, more annoying than anything else. Episodes of insomnia kicked in after an extended period of stress starting about 9 years ago. It comes and goes, either related to stress, or usually it's just supplements that send me into a tired-wired phase. Starting 3 years ago, I had a lot of intestinal issues such as bloating, pain, carbohydrate intolerance, candida................then I started having muscles issues such as non recovery from exercise, soreness, aching, and unrelenting muscles spasms........then brain fog and fatigue. I knocked out the intestinal/abdominal problems with olive leaf extract, but all other areas have continued to worsen. I have many tests that confirm methylation issues. I have at least two genetic mutations (MTHFR 677 and 1298), and probably a few others. My entire family struggles with similar health problems, but my sister and mother have improved greatly with the methylation protocol practically immediately. I've worked at starting the protocol for over 2 years now, usually dropping my extremely low does due to the severe tired-wired response and horrible liver congestion after just a few days. Folate is the first methylation supplement that I have taken at a normal dose that actually gave an immediate positive response. Knowing my body, I will probably be out of balance in a few days, but I now know that I do need to up my folate dose, then look for critical cofactors.
  20. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    Are both folapro and B12 meant to be under the tounge? And how long should they normally be there? I have just bought the supplements...

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