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methylation treatment kicked off a histamine reaction? Richvank!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by wciarci, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. wciarci

    wciarci Wenderella

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    Some time ago, I began the simplifed protocol. I had to stop because of itching and a rash that has never gone away. My PC doctor was mystified, I went to a dermatologist who wrote with a stick on my skin and voila, raised welts. He said allergic reaction, histamine is being expelled through my skin (rather than sneezing or such). So I am on anti-histamines. So.... what do I do? Do I start the protocol again? Any suggestions are appreciated.

    Wendy:eek:
  2. pken

    pken

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    Hi wciarci Sorry to hear about your new "discovery".

    But to answer your question, avoid large doses of the b vitamins - I think folate is the worst culprit for elevating histamine and maybe B12. I get all sorts of histamine reactions (and feel terrible) on a B complex even though it's theoretically good for energy. Beyond what I get from my diet the only B's I take are biotin, pantothenic acid and PABA (not strictly a B vitamin, it's something to do with folic acid but doesn't seem to cause me problems). Taking the amino acid methionine may help your body process the histamine better and then there's reducing the foods (and supplements) that contain histidine which is the precursor to histamine. Hope that's a useful starting point.
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Wendy.

    I'm sorry to hear about the rise in histamine. Histamine is made from histidine, and tetrahydrofolate is needed to metabolize histadine to glutamate. When there is a partial methylation cycle block, tetrahydrofolate is not being produced at a normal rate by the methionine synthase reaction (this is what produces the elevated Figlu on a urine organic acids test). It may be that more of the histidine goes into forming histamine when the conversion to glutamate is impeded by low tetrahydrofolate.

    The other aspect to consider is the breakdown of histamine. If this is slow, histamine can build up. There are two main pathways for this. One is a methyltransferase pathway, and a partial methylation cycle block would be expected to interfere with it. The other is diamine oxidase, which requires vitamin B6 (actually its active form, P5P) and copper. If either of these is deficient, it could slow the breakdown of histamine and produce higher levels of it.

    What can be done? Well, together with your physician, you might check the levels of copper and B6, and supplement if low. If copper is supplemented, zinc should also be supplemented at a dosage that is a factor of 10 or 15 higher, to keep them in proper balance. It's also important not to overdo the copper, because it can produce oxidative stress via the Fenton reaction.
    Antihistamines are another possibility. There are at least 3 types of histamine receptors, and each requires certain antihistamines. There are some supplements that reportedly decrease the production of histamine, one being quercetin.
    In the long run, I think that restoring the methylation cycle function should control the histamine levels, and together with your physician, you might consider trying lower dosages of the methylation protocol supplements and raise them slowly. It's important to be careful so as to avoid anaphylaxis, which can be serious.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Wendy,

    Such an itching rash on scalp and is my response to hydroxycbl and folinic acid, within just a few days. For me methylb12 and Metafolin would make it go away just as quickly. My allergic reactions also increase tremendously with hydroxycbl and/or folinic acid instead of Metafolin.
  5. wciarci

    wciarci Wenderella

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    Thanks for your replies,

    I really want to improve methylation, but do it gradually. I have researched and histamine is a classic sign of under methylation. It is just so weird that it happened when I tried to improve methylation. My rash is not on my scalp, just all over my body. I have some spots on my temple. I have also crashed bigtime after taking yoga lessons. I will try and talk to my instructor in detail about cfs, maybe start a cfs/fm group of slow easy poses.

    I will work with my pcdoctor and get some tests, take it very slow.

    Freddd, will try your approach.

    The antihistamines are helping but not getting rid of it completely. Oh Well

    Wendy
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Wendy,

    For me there are two distinct parts of the pattern, as I've mentioned elsewhere.. There are the near immediate, 1-4 days, of appearance on the scalp and then cheeks as I described in the previous post. Then there is the longer term folate related in which the reaction spreads to my torso and upper legs over weeks to months as it remains uncorrected. Good luck.
  7. pken

    pken

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    My understanding is that antihistamines only block the effects of histamine (by latching onto histamine receptors) so the histamine is still floating around. They do nothing to remove it or "kill" it as many people seem to think.

    Maybe while improving your methylation you are also, inadvertently, increasing the histamine in your body with the supplements you are taking. Do you have any known liver problems?
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pken,

    Increased allergic response is a methylb12 and/or methylfolate deficiency characterisitc. Since these increase methylation more than hydroxycbl (does NOT contribute methyl groups) and folinic acid I kind of doubt it is caused by an increase in methylation. Hydroxycbl competes for methyl groups and worsens some b12 deficiency symptoms. Folinic acid is not a replacement for Metafolin for some (many?) people.
  9. pken

    pken

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    Thanks Freddd, my poorly made point was that if whatever b-vitamins actually increase the histadine to histamine change (I think there were references on Pubmed) then perhaps any improved methylation processes with this side effect are not so helpful. I got myself in quite a pickle after taking large, but not silly, doses of "the Bs". It took months to normalise after stopping the capsules. I'm now especially wary of doing things that should work but don't (for me), if that makes sense.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pken,

    Taking a b-complex, but not mb12 and Metafolin, can put more pressure on the LACK of mb12 and Metafolin. So if one is taking b-complex with hydroxycbl and folinic acid, lots of people will experience a genuine worsening of symptoms over time. As this is caused by increased mb12/mfolate deficiencies, it won't go away easily even if the b-complex, hydroxcbl and folinic acid are discontinued. These are not to be confused with the startup responses of mb12/Metafolin as these are a perception of intensification plus rapid changes in functional deficiencies. In my experience, the longer a person takes hydroxycbl and folinic acid, the worse 2/3s of the active b12 and folate deficiency symptoms become and the more intense the startup when the active forms are taken.

    Please don't confuse the effects of the two different protocols. They are not at all interchangeable and don't have the same results.

    So what were you actually taking when you had the worsened histamine reactions?
  11. wciarci

    wciarci Wenderella

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    Hi Pken, Freddd,
    I will be talking to my doctor about running tests on folic acid, B6, copper and zinc, in the meantime my B12 levels came in at over 1,000. Maybe I should back off the B12. I have methionine tablets but they contain folic acid and B6, so am not sure if I should take these. I have upped my Vit C. I take cyanocobalamin shots and sublinqual hydroxycobalamin. Should I be taking methy instead? what about folate? I am so confused and in such a crash. Just getting over the flu, after which I developed three bacterial infections, lung, sinuses and urinary tract. This flu that is going around is known for causing these complications although not usually all three at once. I blame the yoga as my teacher was really pushing us and I know I just didn't feel right but kept doing it. Thanks so much for the replies. I will keep on keeping on.

    WEndy
  12. pken

    pken

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    Freddd, I had been taking mb12 as a standalone sublingual to supplement what I thought was a relatively B-sufficient diet. Then I added and a B complex which contained regular folic acid, so perhaps that explains it. It was only for a few days and I was really surprised at quite how bad I felt but initially put it down to other factors. At the time I was "taken in" by the "oh don't worry, b vitamins are water soluble and anything you don't need will just get flushed away" brigade. I've learned to be far more cautious since. Of course I take full responsibility for my actions and I know the advice was well intended!

    Is it possible that both protocols increase histamine. In other words, do "we" know that Metafolin has no effect on histidine conversion?

    Thanks again.

    Wendy, I can't speak with any authority at all on the protocol but in my experience keeping on or restarting anything that doesn't seem to be working when you're crashing down is a bad idea, however good the theories and experiences behind it.

    I'm very wary of vitamin C in high doses (gram amounts) too because I seemed to cause myself problems with depleting necessary minerals. I never had any GI issues taking it though so the "take to bowel tolerance" doesn't seem to be a reliable indicator of safety. Personally I wouldn't take the methionine you have because of the folic acid. B6 hasn't caused me any obvious problems and it's in the Now Foods Methionine I have taken in the past without problem. If you can get some plain methionine or the Now version with B6 that might be worth a try.

    Before I go, I understand a more useful way to test copper is to check levels of copper enzymes like histaminase (also called diamine oxidase). And has your doctor checked vitamin D levels? Once I got those up my regular colds vanished. It was virtually a miracle.

    I do hope you feel better soon.
  13. wciarci

    wciarci Wenderella

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    Pken, it is all so confusing. I am, I think, a classic undermethylator, yet when I started to try to improve this, Whammo. There has to be another link, another issue. I have been supporting and treating methylation (my own way) since I think 2004 or so when I decided that methylation was key. I was really great in 2004 but I had just gone through antibiotic and anti-viral treatment. I am going to have to review what I have done, when, and why. By the way this rash is so bad that it looks like I am scaring from it. I have never had itching so intense, not chicken pox, poison ivy or anything.

    Wendy
  14. pken

    pken

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    That really sounds awful. Do you have alternative antihistamines you could try. I experimented with a lot and found the old style (the ones that tend to make you sleepy) were far more effective for me. The newer type had no real effect at all. Beware though as as they are an extra burden to your liver which may already be under stress.

    Speaking of that part of the body, how is your liver - have you ever had an ultrasound? My liver test results were actually good/normal but it turns out (based on a scan) that I had an enlarged and fatty liver despite being a non-drinker and not overweight. Since addressing this (with K-RALA, methionine, ALCAR, choline, lecithin) I've begun to feel a lot better. And the improvement was surprisingly rapid with no side effects. And that makes sense when you consider what the liver has to do and how quickly is can regenerate, given the right conditions. Perhaps your block is here? I'm not cured yet but nothing has ever made such a difference to me.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Wendy,

    Why would you stop taking b12 just becasue a blood test shows over 1000pg/ml. That means that there were 5 mcg more in you blood then if it were zero. That is a pretty low level for anybody taking methylb12. It is not high enought that it predicts lack of effectiveness of mb12/adb12 and it is really pretyy meaningless, espcieally in terms of healing neurology. If you were totally asymptomatic and wanted to play the game of starving your body for mb12 making your symptoms come back and just taking enough b12 to hold them at bay sometimes thats your business. Those I know who do this end up not doing it because the symptoms rebound harder and harder and are more difficult to make go away each time.

    Generally Mb12/adb12 works 100-10000 times better, depending upon your characteristics than the inactive cobalamins. On the hydroxycbl and cyanocbl 2/3 of symptoms can continue getting worse while they are being taken and typically only 1/3 of the symptoms might be partially affected. I would also take any brand of Metafolin. I take the Solgar 800mcg because it is half the price of the competition. It also works very well. The hanging on of infections after the flu is typical of mb12/folate deficiencies. Clearly what you are doing is not working in a satisfactory way. Perhaps adopting a different hypothesis that has a far superior probability of doing so would be a good strategy for you. Assumning you have the symptoms typical of those on these pages the program you have been isn't very likely to deal with most of your symptoms.


    Good luck.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pken,

    Is it possible that both protocols increase histamine.


    Mb12 and methylfolate both decrease allergic response and both reduce hypersesitivity reactions to all sorts of things. My inflammatory and allergic responses went wild with glutathione as it put me into hard folate deficiency very quickly. As soon as I increased the Metafolin high enough to stop the induced deficiency in it's tracks after stopping the glutathione. Hyroxyb12 and folic acid, (and/or foilinc acid for some people), have very little resemblance to the effects of mb12/advb12/Metafolin. They just do not work the same. I KNOW that hydroxycbl/folic acid don't act like mb12 and Metafolin in reducing inflammation and histamine in a lot of people.

    One of the things I spent the last 8 years doing is making the active b12 protocol more reliably predictable and effective. One of the things I have found is that t in order for most people to respond, each and every thing is quite specific. Brand really does matter. Types of b12 really do matter. Types of folate really do matter. Cofactors really do matter. The strategy I used, which worked for everything I tried except glutathione. follow the path of most intensity. If I had avoided all the supplements that intensified and changed symptoms I would be dead now instead of healed. The more intensity I felt from the b vitamins, the faster I healed. I used intensity and shifting of symptoms as my aiming point. It was a right on bulls-eye each time except for glutathione.

    The bowel tolerance of C is because in a lot of people it causes them to be a little gasssy the first couple of days of a much larger dosage. It fades rapidly at any given level and can be easily missed and doesn't affect everybody.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Wendy,

    There has to be another link, another issue. I have been supporting and treating methylation

    Part of the problem is right here. Methylation is an important part, but only a fractional part of what mb12/adb12 do assisted by Metafolin and cofactors. Supporting methylation alone but not the rest of it is like trying to set up tents without any poles, we are all muggles here.

    Where precisely is your rash located and how would you describe it's progression to this point?

    One of the things that has happened to me, quite a while back near the beginning, was that a lot of my skin wasn't very good. It was bumpy, irritated, cracked, infected follicles, acne etc. Large areas of badly made skin turned red and irritated looking, was lifted up from below and peeled off leaving the nicest skin I've ever had under it. I've had a couple of minor repeats after setbacks, especially the glutathione crash.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I want to address this issue but not to anybody in particular. I used to not be able to go near the laundry aisle at the supermarket. I have had to get up and leave the symphony because of somebody with too much perfume 3 rows away. My skin was hypersensitive to all sorts of things. Fabric softener would give me itchy red welts all over by body. I took antihistamines, Albuterol, theophylin, some other meds I don't remember, for the first 50 odd years of my life. I haven't had a prescription filled or bought OTC versions of any of these meds in more than 7 years except when the methyl-trap hit me from glutathione. Many others have had similar experiences. And it is quite consistantly that Mb12 and/or metafolin cause such a reduction in allergic responses. Now I can shop without worry, I don't bring my own pillowcases when I travel and I never have to leave concerts or anything else because of others attempted aroma enhancements. And my skin as a whole is the best it has ever been in my life and no longer hypersensitive.

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