Methylation - too much energy?? Heading for a crash?

[BadBadBear]

Hi BadBadBear,

I found B2 made my potassium losses skyrocket and become dangerously uncontrollable. Be careful of B2, it's essential but can overdrive parts of the cycle in an unbalanced way.

Thanks Freddd. If I experiment with B2 again, it will be verrrrry slowly.

At this point I really need to figure out my blood test results from today - potassium is at 3.9 (aiming for the 4.5 range). However, Anion Gap is at 19.9 (ref. 7-16) and CO2 is a little low at 19 (ref. 21-30). Both seem to indicate metabolic acidosis? Bad^2.

And my sodium has shifted down 4 points to 138 (ref. 135-145). My system is feeling volatile.

I wonder if a magnesium problem could be underpinning things? Low potassium can be linked to low mag., and low mag. can cause acidosis. I am taking 600 mg. of citrate a day, but maybe it's being washed out faster than I'm replacing?

 

[Lotus97]

I may try a speck of B2 at some point. I'd really love to heal up the major crack on my right thumb, if B2 is a factor. The crack on my left thumb healed up quickly - in about 3 days of B2, and the crack on the right partially healed, and then opened back up when I stopped taking B2. I'd like to try a tiny bit of it again and see if it heals things up fully. It would be a good experiment, but literally I'd want to only use a tiny speck of B2 this time.

Something is going on with the skin cracks, they are too symmetrical and the timing is too weird on them developing. They look all the world like an angular chelitis on my fingers.

It's not the B2 that's causing the hypokalemia and overmethylation. At least not directly. It increases MTHFR so it indirectly can cause that if (and only if) you're taking too much methylfolate. If you reduce methylfolate and increase B2 and/or R5P (the coenzymated form of B2) then you're getting the same effect. Plus you're getting the many other benefits of B2 (such as aiding in the Krebs cycle and recycling glutathione). It's really a win/win. I can't imagine why you wouldn't do that as B2 along with all the other vitamins and minerals are necessary cofactors for countless functions in our bodies. This is from dbkita explaining how B2/R5P works in regards to processing folates:

P5p is the cofactor most people focus on since it controls methionine synthase, shmt, and cystathione beta, and dopamine and serotonin production.

But r5p is the cofactor for mthfr. And r5p will also increase b6 to p5p conversion. This is relevant since anyone taking oral p5p has it all turn to b6 in their stomach due to the low ph (unless enteric coated which is rare). So their b2 levels will regulate their b6 to p5p levels.

My guess is that increasing b2 is ramping your conversion of 5, 10 methylene thf to methylfolate while you are ingesting methylfolate throughout the day. You have lots of thf from driving the methylation cycle, you have no rate limitation on making 5, 10 methylene thf due to adequate p5p and adequate shmt activity, add the b2 at sufficient concentration and even with a defective mthfr you still get a big shift in your equilibrium. Hypokakemia accelerates, and the reaction rates of the folate cycle and the methylation cycle "uncouple" in the new state. You probably are not in methyl trap since you have adequate b12s but for some people that may also come into play if they shift b2 in to high gear.

In my own case I seem ok on 100 mg b2 single dose provided I am not going above 800 mcg of methylfolate. Last year the additional 400-800 mcg of methylfolate, on and off 800 mcg folinic acid, SAM-e, tmg, etc along with 100 mg b2 was a mess with hypokalemia. When I switched to 50 mg b2 and 50 mg r5p it was hypokalemia wasteland.

 

[Victronix]

This is the B-complex -- http://www.naturemade.com/products/b-complex/b-complex-with-c

You can find it at supermarkets and drugstores, although you want to get the one that doesn't have folic acid and that can take a little hunting.

The Davidson Labs one has 400 of methylfolate, so for me, since I'm slowly working my way up on that, I can only take a tiny amount and that won't give me enough of the other Bs, which is why I take the Nature Made one also, since it is rare in that it doesn't have folic acid, which I'm avoiding. If you eat wheat, you get folic acid anyway, but it's best not to add on to that load if you can, since it can block natural folates.

 

[Victronix]

I also take only Albion labs magnesium because it doesn't interact with the gut. These are the companies that use Albion versions of magnesium -- http://www.albionminerals.com/human-nutrition/gold-medallion-program/gm-companies At the moment I'm still experimenting in finding the best dosage, though.

 

[BadBadBear]

@Lotus, thanks. I'll consider the B2... In the meantime, the reduced methylfolate seems to be fine. I am still getting folic acid in my evening B-Right until it runs out, and of course getting some B2 there as well. I should also get a lot of B2 from goat milk (2 cups a day).

Victronix, thank you - I'll look for that at Rite Aid. Didn't see it at Walmart. Is the Davidson Labs a capsule that can be broken in half? I don't eat wheat or pretty much any processed food (Ok, maybe a square of chocolate now and again). So not getting folic acid there. If FitDay is correct, it usually shows a zero for folic acid, so maybe I'm not getting any?

My small update is that since my bloodwork shows acidosis, I am cutting out lactic acid foods (homemade goat milk kefir & yogurt) and cut out decaf coffee. I'm also going to add a tiny bit of sodium bicarb to my daily electrolyte drinks and see if I can improve the acidosis through diet. I am going to up my calcium a bit and match it 1-1 with magnesium. Small adjustments... Then check bloodwork in 2 weeks to see if potassium is where I want it & check acidosis. I am sure potassium is getting to a good level now, my heart rate is back to normal after being elevated.

I will say I felt really good this afternoon, got the lawn mowed and did some other chores that I don't usually have energy for. Played piano for a long while and my arms didn't wear out. Also did OK with a restorative yoga class yesterday, too. I'm glad this crash wasn't long duration. It feels like I'm honing in on a working supplement routine.

- Michelle

 

[Victronix]

Victronix, thank you - I'll look for that at Rite Aid. Didn't see it at Walmart. Is the Davidson Labs a capsule that can be broken in half? I don't eat wheat or pretty much any processed food (Ok, maybe a square of chocolate now and again). So not getting folic acid there. If FitDay is correct, it usually shows a zero for folic acid, so maybe I'm not getting any?

Hi Michelle,
I was calling it Davidson Labs but it's actually Douglas Labs, and is listed on Fredd's protocol. It's one of the few things that is not sold on iherb.com, but it's listed at other sites like this one:
http://www.professionalsupplementce...g&matchtype=&gclid=CMvRsfSjtbcCFWbhQgodPWkAyw Its in a capsule that contains powder, so I just add a small amount of it to liquid and take it that way.

Glad you are doing better and getting things done.

-- Vic

 

[Lotus97]

I think this B complex might be a better value (assuming you can tolerate the dosages)
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swan...ed-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-veg-caps

 

[BadBadBear]

Victronix, hah, I knew you meant the Douglas Labs version. I was thinking of the same one, and also got the name wrong. Funny! Thanks for the info.

@Lotus, thanks! I wish the dosages weren't quite so high in those.

I am thinking about just buying the various B capsules and making a custom mix, then I can add the powder to liquid as Vic is doing (or mixing in applesauce). I would much rather take B complex 2x or 3x per day.

Today I managed a bit of work pruning in the rose garden while it was cool, then promptly crashed. Energy definitely seems to have spurts.

I have been thinking more on the B2 issue, and am planning to try it at a very low dose - like a titch of it from a capsule, and that titch split into a few doses in the day. The thumb cracks occurred right when methylation started (April 17), and the few days of B2 seemed to help. It may be a needed co-factor for me. Anyway, as long as the cracks are present, it means methylation is not the only healing cycle that I need and something is missing. If I take a titch of it now, then my next blood work should show if it's killing my potassium level or if just a little dusting of it would be OK.

 

[Lotus97]

BadBadBear
You could just empty out part of the capsule if you don't want the full amount. So are you still taking 2400 mcg of methylfolate? (you said 3 tabs of methylfolate earlier in this thread so I assumed it was 800 mcg each)

 

[detharlwy]

Thanks BadBadBear for this thread.

I just registered here to reply to your post.

I want to say that I am using exactly the same B Complex Lotus 97 points out. I was taking it time to time.

Now - whenever I take it I take full energy. I mean I hade some real energy. I thought it trigerred my mania. But as I see there is no literature that B Vitamins create mania. So it is a full energy. So I splitted the tablets in half and I get some energy. Is there any risk with extra energy I have with B Complex? Or is it just harmless. With possible crash what do you mean? Is it emotionally - psychologically or is it just needing some rest?

My mother is 74 years old. I gave her the same complex. But with a little bit fear I splitted her dosage into 2 too with a capsule filler. At this age - would this give my mother give some harm? Did I do any good giving her splitted dose?

She quitted antidepressant and taking B Complex only. Appears B Complex do some work

Here is the vitamin if I need to paste again:

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swan...ed-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-veg-caps