1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
New Exercise Study Brings Both Illumination and Questions
Simon McGrath looks at new objective evidence of abnormal response to exercise in ME/CFS patients, and the questions that researchers are still trying to answer ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Methylation - too much energy?? Heading for a crash?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by BadBadBear, May 13, 2013.

  1. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    In the last two days, my energy level has come up drastically - it's kind of concerning me. I am concerned about overmethylation, excitotoxicity, etc. What are the warning signs before a crash?

    I started methylation April 17, 1 - 2 mg mB12, and about 3 tabs of mFolate throughout the day. I have upped my potassium to 3 MEQ/day (also on Florinef) as my potassium level was heading low at last check two weeks ago. I am also taking D-Ribose + carnatine.

    Yesterday I rototilled my garden. I couldn't believe it!! Most days I can barely sit on a mat and pull weeds for 15 minutes. And today I did some yard work in the AM, and all day have been hungry... Normally I can't very much, but today I just ate two yams with butter and salt and could have easily devoured the third one.

    Something is up, and I don't know whether to be happy about it or worried.
    Victronix likes this.
  2. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

    Messages:
    221
    Likes:
    257
    Iowa
    Not an expert, but I would suggest easing into the extra work and scheduling in break times to try to prevent an over-doing it crash. You can easily increase the work time and decrease the break time in the coming weeks if things continue to go well.... and let's all hope it does.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes:
    406
    United States
    It depends what your body is able to handle. For me, methylation made my health worse so now I take lower doses and plan on very gradually increasing them.
  4. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    Thanks -

    penny, I think the idea of *scheduling* breaks is very good. :) Try to prevent a crash rather than wait for one...

    @Lotus, I don't know yet what my body can handle? It wasn't very much a few weeks ago, I am so curious if this is anomalous or if it will last?
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes:
    406
    United States
    It also depends on a person's underlying health issues.
  6. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    Lotus, I'm not even sure what my underlying issues are as yet. I am working toward diagnosis, but I'm still a very long way from having any answers.

    Of course, going to the cardiologist tomorrow and I almost hate to tell her I've had a couple of good days, for fear that she'll use that to blow off my issues. :) And then I'll crash. :)

    Tonight I was wondering if 'earthing' is part of the healing process for me. Still going along pretty well energy-wise.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes:
    406
    United States
    Hopefully you'll have better luck than me. Methylation can exacerbate inflammation for people with certain conditions such as viral or bacterial infections, metal/mold/chemical toxicities, or autoimmune diseases. People with adrenal dysfunction might also have trouble of they overdo it in regards to increasing their activities due to extra "energy" from methylation. But if someone's main problem is from difficulty processing folate and B12 then they might not have as much trouble with methylation since they would be treating their underlying health issue (or at least one of them).
    After I had gradually been making a recovery over the past few years I started working out at the gym last summer. My doctor starts floating the idea of me getting a part-time job. Well, just working out at the gym was enough to cause a relapse and then some other things happened later to make it worse. Again, I hope you have better luck than me, but that's my experience.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    866
    Salt Lake City
    HI Badbadbear,

    YES!. That is your mitochondria and nervous system turning on. If you try to abort it you might not do as well again. It will feel normal pretty quickly. Be careful not to overdue because while ypu feel much better, you have to build capacity. This sounds ;like you have turned ion a couple of layers at least of healing. Feel good and let that be your aiming point. Keep this going and you could have amazing results aver the next 6-12 months. Epithelial tissues should be healing rapidly unless you have a folate insufficiency. All sorts of things could be recovering. Start exercise slowly and increase slowly. I started with walking 500 feet and worked up by one driveway distance per day or every other day. In a year I could do 5 miles.
    Victronix, BadBadBear and cph13 like this.
  9. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    Thanks Freddd. :)

    Two things of interest - when I started m-folate, I developed cracks on both thumbs - kind of deep ones which are symmetrically placed on my two thumbs. I can post photos... Any idea why this would be? Seems like m-folate should heal cracks, unless it could be causing a deficiency of some other type? Just thought it was interesting because that specific symptom is on your paradoxical m-folate deficiency symptom list. Could it mean my B12 to mFolate ratio is off?

    The other thing is that I've had a cold and am not sure about energy level at the moment, but in the last week my hypotension is much better. I am again not sure if it's from methylation, but it's a very interesting coincidence and I'm curious to see if it lasts. Diastolic BP had been mostly between 55 and 60 previously, and this week it's been between 65 and 70 which is quite significant if it will stay up.

    Even with my cold, I didn't get nearly as sick as my husband, who is usually the healthier one of us. So something seems to be working on that level, too...

    Again, thanks for the note.

    - Michelle
  10. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    To update my own thread, I waded through a B2 thread, and decided to add B2 yesterday to see if it would help heal the skin cracking & assist methylation. I took 100MG of it yesterday w/ interesting results.

    First, I didn't wake up to go to the bathroom at night, normally I wake up twice each night. This was really weird, it was like all the water I had yesterday night stayed in me (which is always considerable, since I'm usually borderline hyponatremic & my doc. just tested me for diabetes insipidus). I didn't even have to go after I woke up in the morning. THAT was really strange.

    Second, I slept all day today, three solid naps. I am much more tired than usual, usually one nap will do.

    Third, the deepest thumb cracks looks less red and raw than yesterday.

    So B2 is giving a result, hopefully it will end up being a good one after whatever this detox phase is. :) I hope it's kicking off a deep healing cycle.
  11. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    And another small update, my blood work is in from the lab and my potassium has dropped again - from 3.7 to 3.4. :cry: I have been taking 30 MEQ a day. Not sure if it's purely from Florinef or also from methylation opening some kind of doorway. The doctors office called me this time, though, so at least now they are paying attention.:ill:
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    866
    Salt Lake City
    Hi BadBadBear,

    I may have BadBadNews. B2 caused my potassium to plummet dangerously causing the lack of peristalsis which I had drugs on had for because of previous such problems. Be careful and pay attention to what is happening in your body.
  13. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    Thanks Freddd. :) I am trying to figure out how to titrate potassium, but man it's tough with Florinef, methylation, and now B2 in the picture. I will probably kick out B2 for now if it's another fly in the ointment, and drop my Florinef dose back down and try to regain some ground.

    The interesting thing is I didn't start methylation until after the blood test that showed that I had lost about .4 mmol/L of my potassium stores. So that loss would have been just the Florinef, and at that time I was not taking potassium.

    Then I added 30 mEq potassium, and started methylation, and three weeks later, had lost another .3 mmol/L of K.

    Seems like with all these bits of data, I can possibly calculate how much I am losing from Florinef versus methylation. Hmmm.

    If I did my math right, Florinef costs me ~6 mEq per day and methylation costs me about 28 mEq per day, so perhaps 40 mEq a day would stop the losses, and a few days at 80 mEq would build my body stores up. o_O

    I will wait to hear from my doctor first, though, and see if they are still wanting to ignore the potassium issue (then I will be forced to self medicate).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Merck Manual: "Because a decrease in serum K of 1 mEq/L correlates with about a 200- to 400-mEq deficit in total body K stores, total deficit can be estimated and replaced over a number of days at 20 to 80 mEq/day."

    and converting from 1 mEq/l to 1 mmol/L is a multiplication factor of 1 (they are equivalent)

    So first 3 weeks, I went from 4.1 to 3.7 mmol/L = .4 loss * 300 mEq = 120 mEq loss = ~6 mEq per day (4500 g)

    Second 3 weeks while mildly methylating, I went from 3.7 to 3.4 mmol/L = .3 loss * 300 mEq = 90 mEq loss = ~4.2 mEq per day while supplementing at 30 mEq per day

    So 30 mEq per day minus 6 mEq lost from Florinef leaves 24 mEq, but I was still losing 4.2 mEq per day so that means ~28 mEq per day deficit from methylation?

    I need coffee (I wish...) :nerd:
    Victronix likes this.
  14. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes:
    1,314
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    It's not a good idea to start off with full doses like that. You're going to be restarting all kinds of functions, detoxing metals, having problems with deficiencies, etc. The bigger your doses, the bigger the problems will be.

    The best method is to start one thing at a time to determine tolerance. If you start a bunch of new things at the same time and have problems, you won't know what is causing what.

    Then on top of that, you should "start low and go slow". This means start with a very low dose, and increase very gradually. If you run into any problems, they should be much milder and easier to deal with. Keep a journal of what you're adding and what symptoms you're getting.

    Watch the Methylation Made Easy videos (the link is in my signature). The third video covers how to proceed with treatment (whatever protocol you decide to try).

    If you learn self muscle testing, you can determine what doses your body is ready for at what time.
  15. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    Thanks Caledonia. Yeah, I journal everything... My food, supps, exercise, etc.

    I didn't think I was starting things too fast, as I'm not usually sensitive... But something has definitely changed in my body, and it is becoming sensitized. :(

    Anyway, I dropped my nightly licorice capsule, lowered B12 and methylfolate, and lowered my fludricort to a half tab - and potassium has bounced up to 3.9 over the week.

    I have definitely crashed - granted I've had a cold in the middle of the potassium crash. So now for a more slow and careful process of building back up to a steady state.
  16. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    293
    Likes:
    79
    California
    My experience has been that its better to take more potassium then less. There seems to be a larger area of the range in on the high end then there is on the low end to work with before things get out of hand.

    I'm amazed you got that low without feeling horrible. When my K hit the bottom of the range I felt awful.

    I would consider not taking B-2 alone or else taking a much smaller amount, given the recent outcome of Fredd's experiment with it.

    I take a simple B-complex that doesn't have folic acid (Nature Made) and a very small amount of a better B-complex that has mfolate (Davidson Labs), to keep things balanced.

    That's great! I also get a little bit of euphoria from methylation when I first increase a dosage. But having energy to do things is a good feeling in itself.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes:
    406
    United States
    BadBadBear
    B2 and R5P help you process methylfolate (which is why they caused hypokalemia in some people). Why not just take more B2 and less methylfolate? You get the same result (as far as methylation) plus B2 is a cofactor in the Krebs cycle and recycling glutathione.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    866
    Salt Lake City
    Hi BadBadBear,

    I found B2 made my potassium losses skyrocket and become dangerously uncontrollable. Be careful of B2, it's essential but can overdrive parts of the cycle in an unbalanced way.
  19. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    Thank you, Victronix, yeah, I felt pretty horrible with that low of potassium. It's hard to discern from low blood pressure, though. The wretched fatigue is about the same. The symptoms that seemed specific to potassium were hand tremors, some feelings of my whole body being irritable & overly adrenalized, and my BP and heart rate went up as it got to the low point. My POTS symptoms were worse, definitely. Maybe I will recognize it next time it happens...

    I looked for a basic B-complex as you described and have not been able to find one yet. :) Probably should just give up and buy the Davidson Labs product.
  20. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    41
    Rocky Mountains
    I may try a speck of B2 at some point. I'd really love to heal up the major crack on my right thumb, if B2 is a factor. The crack on my left thumb healed up quickly - in about 3 days of B2, and the crack on the right partially healed, and then opened back up when I stopped taking B2. I'd like to try a tiny bit of it again and see if it heals things up fully. It would be a good experiment, but literally I'd want to only use a tiny speck of B2 this time.

    Something is going on with the skin cracks, they are too symmetrical and the timing is too weird on them developing. They look all the world like an angular chelitis on my fingers.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page