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Methylation tests??

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by JBB, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. JBB

    JBB Senior Member

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    Hi guys,

    Trying to sort out my methylation as this will support any Lyme protocol I undertake so I'd like to get it started ASAP. I'm a bit confused as to what tests to do and what the implications of the tests are. I have done a sort of methylation protocol before but not looked into it properly. Shame we don't have Rich pushing this area forward for us anymore :(...

    Could anyone tell me the best tests for methylation and how to go about this please?


    Best wishes,

    JBB
     
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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  3. JBB

    JBB Senior Member

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    Cheers @PeterPositive .

    The link to Rich's article gives lots of info, but what are the implications of these results for treatment? Does the test just track progress / show where you are?

    Also I have heard of some people using the 23andme for methylation...these are gene mutations so what's the deal here?

    Doesn't @Freddd recommend just doing the supps and seeing what happens?


    Many thanks,

    John
     
  4. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    The methylation panel will show whether the protocol is lifting the methylation block.
    The difference between approaches, from my point of view and personal experience are that with Rich's approach if methylation is being corrected, which you can see from the panel, but you still don't feel well, then you should carry on with the protocol but look elsewhere for other causes of ill health. Rich mentioned other potential problem areas such as Lyme, mold, mercury toxicity, viruses etc all of which will have to be addressed specifically.
    With the other approaches, you won't know what's happening exactly to the status of your methylation and if you still don't feel well...
     
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  5. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Yes, it is a lot of info and may take some time to digest. Maybe if you have doc working with you you won't need to learn all the details.

    Yes, the test is fine to track progress or more generally to asses how good or bad your methylation is going. It's true that you can try a methylation protocol without testing.

    An alternative is an inexpensive test for homocysteine (Hcy) which is a good marker of your methylation status. If you have a value of 8 or less chances are your methylation function is pretty much normal.

    In my case it was a very high Hcy level that triggered an initial supplementation of various B vitamins but I then had to do the full methylation panel to learn more about what was wrong. I had (and still have) a stubbornly high Hcy.

    Mutations show only potential weaknesses but don't say much about the current status. It can be useful anyways to see what might be the biggest deficiencies.

    Others claim that certain SNPs may tell you which forms of folate or B12 you should take. I am not sold on that entirely.

    In a nutshell yes. If you start low and slow you shouldn't have troubles.
    There are lots of posts about Freddd protocol in this board, but I am sure you know that already.

    cheers
     
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  6. JBB

    JBB Senior Member

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    Thank you @xrunner

    I see, that's what I thought.

    You mean if you don't use the test recommended by Rich you don't know? Presumably Freddd's protocol would show whether the block had been lifted after doing that test too?...but just differs in that it's more using your own response rather than the test.


    Thank you @PeterPositive

    So the results changed your dosages etc?

    As in terms of a certain type of B12 / folate / SAM-E etc?

    I have taken Adenosyl + Methyl + P-5-P + MTHF all at the same time in reasonable doses and it did nothing for me. I do have Lyme (as yet untreated) so obviously methylation is only a part of it. Does that suggest though that my methylation is pretty good?

    I want to get everything going well before I spend £££££ on Lyme treatment! Many people with Lyme seem to have methylation issues.


    Many thanks for your replies,

    JBB
     
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I did the HDRI methylation panel and it was eye opening to see just how screwed up my methylation is. However, it has not proven that useful for treatment, outside of mentioning I might have a CBS problem, which I did.

    The two best tests for treatment for me have been the 23andme, run through geneticgenie.org to get the methylation and detox panels, and then the Nutreval test.

    The key is interpreting them correctly. I have produced two guides for interpretation - The SNPs Interpretation Guide and the Nutreval Intepretation Guide, which is based on a compilation of Rich's interpretations. You can also tell if you have a partial methylation block via the Nutreval.

    The links are in my signature. I also suggest reading "Start Low and Go Slow" and "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation".
     
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  8. BFG

    BFG

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    I am interested in the hdri methylation panel. Is this covered by insurance and do I need a doctor to Oder this test? Anyone know how much this test is? Thanks.
     
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  9. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Yes, my doc was kind of reluctant pushing folate/B12 too high at first but when the results came back he agreed on increasing the methylation supplements.

    Apparently so. People with COMT mutations should be more sensitive to methylfolate ad methyl-B12. I had the same problem without having any significant mutations in that area.

    It just took me a long time to get my body used to them and now I can take relatively high doses without discomforts. I am not sure if those snps can be taken literally. Some docs do.

    Difficult to say.
    My 2c would be to test your homocysteine levels. It's quick and inexpensive, any lab can do that. If the result comes back normal (i.e. <=8) then your methylation is probably fine. You can keep some support anyways, especially since you have other issues.

    If the results are elevated I'd suggest to investigate with your doctor.

    cheers
     
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  10. JBB

    JBB Senior Member

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    @caledonia Wow! That is a seriously impressive signature. What a fantastic job you've done putting together all that info. That is exactly what I need to start piecing this stuff together.

    Hmmm Nutreval test is not cheap!...not sure of how much value it would be to me pre Lyme treatment, many of my minerals are depleted because of the infection. Maybe this one would be a good one to do after the initial treatment to see how things are going.

    I have the 23andme on order now. What do the detox panels show you?

    @PeterPositive cheers for the input. Yes that sounds like a good idea to check my homocysteine levels as an initial test. So how indicative is homocysteine to methylation?

    I think I may well pop some B12's and see how I get on anyway to be safe. It's strange it did nothing for me last time though.

    Best wishes,

    JBB
     
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The HDRI is around $300. You need a doctor to order it. Is it covered? - I guess it depends on your insurance. I have Medicare which doesn't pay for anything out of the ordinary, so I paid out of pocket.
     
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  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The detox panels show if you tend to be estrogen dominant (can cause cancer), what meds or toxins you may have trouble detoxifying and so could cause bad reactions or cancer.

    The most important thing for methylation is the glutathione SNPs. If you have those, it would explain why you have low glutathione. Some people don't have MTHFR and almost invariably they will have one or more glutathione SNPs.

    If they don't have either MTHFR or glutathione SNPs then environmental reasons such as mercury or lead could be why they're sick, as those also slow down methylation even in the absence of SNPs. I think I've only seen one person like that. But it would be an important clue for treatment and healing.
     
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  13. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    It is pretty important. High homocysteine means your methionine synthase cycle is not working correctly, possibly due to a B12 issue. So that simple value can give you bird's eye view of your methylation status.

    It's actually a good marker for B12 sufficiency.

    B12 should be accompanied by methylfolate. If one's missing it's easy to slip into a methylation block.

    cheers
     
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  14. JBB

    JBB Senior Member

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    Ok cheers. Yes I'll look up Rich's / Freddd's protocols and try and do a proper job on it :).

    Many thanks,

    JBB
     
  15. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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    Caledonia, thanks for mentioning nutreval. Both my ND and my functional MD want me to have it. We are waiting till the first of the year when I get medicare as Genova bills medicare.

    What I am really interested in finding if at all possible is a list of common tests that evaluate methylation. A friend in the Google+ MTHFR Community found this site today. http://metabolichealing.com/understanding-mthfr-genetics-methylation-ii-landing-page/ The price is to high for me but I found, when I went to see what you get, that they mention quick reference guides. About the QRGs they say "
    The Clinical Genetics & Methylation Quick Reference Guide:

    • This Quick Reference Guide is a phenomenal complimentary tool to your video presentation. It is an excellent resource guide to enable you to learn the finer points of methylation enzymes and what nutrients promote their function.
    • Additionally your QRG will feature an entire section on the most essential laboratory tests for assessing methylation from a functional, biochemical perspective. This includes:
      • Urinary organic acids test
      • Blood chemistry markers
      • Plasma amino acids
    The rest of the package is videos. I can't concentrate enough to watch videos.

    So, Caledonia, and anyone, are there tests we can do regularly that will help understand our methylation status? I can do thyroid, homocysteine, and other tests but what common tests might these "essential" tests be? My ND only thinks Doctor's Data at Seeking Health for 195 dollars will work. That is unsustainable as my health status changes.
     
  16. npeden

    npeden NPeden, Monterey, CA

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    I just got my first email from Metabolic Healing and I thought it offered a good list that perhaps could lead to coming up with regular lab tests to try for assessing methylation:

    "Which biological functions are directly tied to methylation?

    *Circulatory & blood clotting factors
    *DNA synthesis & repair via thymidine synthesis
    *Gene expression via epigenetic regulations such as histone modification
    *Nitric oxide synthesis, aka blood vessel elasticity
    *Removal of homocysteine, a potentially toxic and atherogenic amino acid
    *Synthesis of powerhouse antioxidants such as Glutathione & SOD
    *Neurotransmitter synthesis & degradation - dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, glutamate, GABA
    *Biotransformation (aka “metabolism & detoxification”) of chemicals, carcinogens & drugs
    *Synthesis of immune cells
    *B-12 & Folate utilization
    *Organ, tissue and fetal development"

    Seems like some labs could be figured out here. Anybody think of some?
     
  17. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I agree, methylation panels are way too expensive to be done regularly.
    An impaired methylation typically will cause high homocysteine. I monitor mine every 2-3 months and it's not an economic concern. It's a basic lab test.

    This year I've done my 1st methylation panel (300 buck), I will likely repeat it next year. Not earlier.
     
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  18. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    I would like to add that some of us, though having an impaired methylation, don´t have an elevated homocysteine.

    This study shows that homocysteine may be normal in blood but not in spinal fluid in people with ME/CFS.

    Scand J Rheumatol. 1997;26(4):301-7.
    Increased concentrations of homocysteine in the cerebrospinal fluid in patients with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome.
    Regland B1, Andersson M, Abrahamsson L, Bagby J, Dyrehag LE, Gottfries CG.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9310111
     
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  19. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Would be interesting to know which other parameters would look "normal" for these subjects? Would serum SAMe levels be in range? Maybe serum glutathione too (which already is not the best of markers)?
     
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  20. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    I agree. The researchers concluded that SAMe should be measured in further research. I guess that we would like to find reliable labtests that were useful to evaluate the methylation that we could get from our GP´s.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2014
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