The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Methylation supplements treat insulin resistance

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gondwanaland, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    People who eat lots of vegetables should eat them with enough fat (methyl donors) such as extra virgin olive oil on the leafy greens or butter to broil vegetables.
    The supplement folic acid is a synthetic, inactive form that requires more methyl donors to be activated than food folate.

    Having said that, an experiment on rats showed that high dose folic acid (without the needed accompanying methyl donors) during pregnancy caused insulin resistance in the offspring.
    A study in humans showed that folate and B12 supplementation reversed metabolic syndrome, improving insulin sensitivity and lowering homocysteine
    I think that the insulin sensitivity has been completely overlooked on this forum, along with blood cell synthesis. People take huge amounts on folate and B12 ignoring that it can cause hypoglycemia and acidosis, plus it will promote the recruitment of other B vitamins and minerals for blood cell synthesis. Additionally, the B vitamins and minerals which can be quickly depleted by an unbalanced supplementation are involved in hormonal and neurotransmitter balance.

    A study has been posted by someone else before showing that unmetabolized folic acid can build up, blocking the use of active folate.

    This causes or worsens B12 deficiency and insulin resistance, causing epigenetic changes and predisposing the offspring to IR and obesity.
    In my personal interpretation, excess of methylfolate intake can have the following adverse outcomes in regards to insulin resistance:

    - first methyfolate can make one who doesn't have IR hypoglycemic, causing panick attacks, acidosis, mood swings etc

    - secondly, excess methyfolate will build up and create/worsen insulin resistance, leading to a huge need for potassium (and B1, choline and magnesium).

    I will be happy to discuss it.

    PS to check for IR one needs the blood tests of fasting insulin, fasting glucose, insulinemic curve and HbA1c
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Also, I would like to add that some sites for diabetics have warnings about high homocysteine, which will be raised by insulin resistance. High homocysteine has a series of implications, especially cardiovascular. I had a vein rupture followed by thormbosis and from the several doctors I saw back then no one asked for homocysteine or insulin blood tests. I am sure I had diabetis insipidus at some point, even though I described my symptoms to Gyn, Endo, Vascular, Hematologist, they never bothered to make a diagnosis from what I described.
     
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    BTW Niacin helps because it antagonizes methyl groups by increasing insulin resistance

    Long-term niacin treatment induces insulin resistance and adrenergic responsiveness in adipocytes by adaptive downregulation of phosphodiesterase 3B

    Also
     
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  4. telochian

    telochian

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    I'm just starting down the road of understanding insulin, glucose oxidation and assorted metabolic problems, which given my recent glucose tolerance test and history of symptoms seems to be central to the fatigue/neuropathy and neurological issues I have had throughout my life.

    I seem to have the opposite of insulin resistance, in my GTT, my blood was initially very low and got lower after the lemonade on steroids. Methylation starting up (accelerating?) was disastrous for me, neurotransmitters went crazy, energy was ramped up for the first couple of days and then died, neuropathy worsened, insomnia etc etc. I tried in vain to control it with a more balanced approach (Freddd's protocol) but in the end hypoglycemia, hypokalemia and potentially acidosis have forced me off it.

    I'm pretty sure I'm naturally a fast acting oxidiser and from what I can tell, methylation supplements ramp up metabolic processes.......not a good combination. There is also a lot of information out there about potassium/sodium ratios and magnesium/calcium ratios and their impact on glucose oxidation and of course, methylation therapy adjusts the balance.

    For whatever reason, my body doesn't oxidise, transport, absorb (into cells) glucose properly. Using methylation supplements seems to ramp up that process causing electrolyte imbalances and other metabolic disturbances which for me at least have led to hypoglycemia and acidosis as @Gondwanaland mentioned above. I think anyone with metabolic problems, diabetes, IR should be very careful with methylation therapy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    • Most people who start methylation supplements don't know what they are treating (like me 2 years ago).
    • Most people have no clue about their glucose/insulin metabolism (like me 2 years ago) mainly because doctors never ask for fasting insulin blood test. Normal glucose levels might not mean anything.
    • I am impressed with how much you know about your condition and am eager to learn more from you @telochian
    • Methylation supplements can be very beneficial for a subset with insulin resistance.
    Same for me
    Please expand on that, feel free to post some links etc
    This is the info I am after, I need to educate myself about it, please expand on it too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  6. telochian

    telochian

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    This explains glucose oxidation with regard to atp generation etc;
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21624/

    Just before posting I was reading this;

    http://www.arltma.com/Articles/HypoDysDiaDoc.htm

    "This type of hypoglycemia can readily be brought on by certain foods or activities that speed up the oxidation rate. Sweets, alcohol, coffee, overwork, exercise,or stress of any kind can readily trigger acute symptoms of hypoglycemia in a fast oxidizer.
    Various food supplements such as vitamin C, vitamin E and B-complex may, because of their stimulatory affects on metabolism, produce the same effect."

    "Fast oxidation refers to a mineral pattern of low tissue calcium and magnesium levels relative to sodium and potassium levels."

    I'll post more once I've got my head around it a little better and have some further supporting evidence. From what I have read, I very much agree with the statement you made earlier about insulin sensitivity being overlooked here, but I would expand that and say that metabolic dysfunction has been overlooked.
     
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  7. telochian

    telochian

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    When I did my GTT; (mmol/L)

    my fasting glucose was 3.6 with the "normal" limits set at 3.6 to 6
    my 1 hour glucose was 3.8 with the "normal" limits set at 3.6 to 11
    my 2 hour glucose was 3.6 with the "normal" limits set at 3.6 to 7.7

    My insulin levels were a very normal 8.

    So apparently.......I'm perfectly normal, lol. I have since bought a glood glucose meter and have been testing myself regularly throughout the day, soon after eating, 1 hour after, 2 hours after, whenever I feel weird or neuropathy worsens. This pattern has continued although I have been able to see a blood glucose spike within 30 minutes of eating carbs which is long gone by the 1 hour mark. I believe my blood sugar levels are what's called a "flat curve hypoglycemic response" (http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/2011/what-is-hypoglycemia/) and given that my insulin levels aren't elevated, it's likely that I have some sort of glucose oxidation/storage problem (no idea in truth, just spitballing). I can remember being as young as 7 and having the shakiness, sweating, giddiness etc of a hypoglycemic event but it isn't until now that I'm connecting the dots as to how it relates to my neuropathy, fatigue etc.

    I like you had no idea of what I was treating when I started methylation therapy, I had neuropathy, fatigue, anxiety, brain fog and other neurological symptoms and a history of taking medication that blocks folate, it all seemed to fit. It seems more and more likely that it was all related to impaired glucose oxidation or storage which was worsened by metabolic stimulation from pushing my methylation system harder.

    I wonder if this would all work in reverse for someone with insulin resistance. If speeding up metabolic process with methylation would drive blood sugar levels down. I am finding that my blood sugar levels are sensitive, I feel strange when I drop into the 4's (foggy, neuropathy worsens) (mmol/L) and feel strange in the high 5's (almost never seen 6). That doesn't leave much margin for error to tinker with blood sugar levels with methylation as the catalyst. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone that has experimented with testing blood sugar and methylation therapy at the same time.

    At this stage, the only way forward for me seems to be ketosis and hoping that I get a good endocrinologist.
     
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  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I came up with this thread from reading the positive testimonials in low carb forums + positive testimonials from people who had success with methylation (and with ALA is the same, likewise for resistant starch). The positive testimonials (as well as the bad reactions) from these three groups (methylation, ALA/"chelation" and RS) are just too similar. So I interpret that people with insulin resistance are far more likely to have success with any of these treatments.
    I think that blood glucose can generally be of little meaning, we need insulin levels. Except made for what you just reported, which I am still processing.
    To me it seems that no matter what you eat, your body's response is as if you were always in ketosis :confused:
    Ketosis for me is the evil! I just can't handle the hypoglycemia and the acidosis. I am done with low carb. I am eating all the fruit, rice, beans and potatoes my lectin sensitivity allows me :eek: And avoid any supplement that is supposed to improve insulin sensitivity :cautious: such as Taurine, vit A, acidophilus, ALA, Mfolate etc
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Very interesting reading, thanks for the link.
     
  10. telochian

    telochian

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    I started posting on a prominent diabetes, hypoglycemia forum today and someone pointed me to this;



    Very interesting indeed.
     
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  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Berberine HCl is good for insulin resistance. Maybe that's because it's good for fatty liver. I don't have time to get the links right now, but there are a lot of them.

    Liver involved in methylation. Read at Chris Masterjohn's Daily Lipid blog with respect to NAFLD.
     
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Berberine is also hard on the liver, generally suggested to cycle it.
     
  13. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Wow, Izzy, your hypothesis is soooo intriguing! I haven't had time/energy yet to delve into the links. Have you thought about doing a poll? Or maybe an informal thread asking people to report their experience with methylation + their insulin status?

    What do you think: If I get frequent hypoglycemia, would that necessarily mean that I'm not insulin resistant? And would the people who are "insulin sensitive" (don't know the proper term) tend to have low BMI (body mass index)?
     
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I might start a thread asking how many people have ever had their fasting insulin measured o_O
    You gotta watch the interview @telochian posted
    That is what I have been trying to figure out :confused: Hope you can help me :hug:
     
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  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Being thin does NOT always mean that one is insulin senstitive. I think the number is 40% of people who have insulin resistance are NOT overweight.
     
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  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    My NAFLD healed just by going gluten free. However, homocysteine didn't improve on its own because I couldn't increase serum B12 levels with the low choline diet I was eating back then.
     
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    These sites summarize some of the research about the role of some B vits and AAs in insulin/glucose metabolism:

     
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  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This is the most important medical information I have ever seen.
     
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  19. telochian

    telochian

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    Yeah it really does contain some profound information, ticks many boxes for me. I have, in the past been diagnosed with menieres disease (even though I'm sure I was misdiagnosed) and when they mentioned the blood sugar connection, I was stunned. I'll be pushing my doctor for a Kraft style 5 hour insulin test to determine my insulin status, even though my fasting insulin on the GTT was perfectly normal.

    In terms of hypoglycemia, it really depends on what the root cause of it is. From my understanding, people in the early stages of diabetes can experience hypoglycemia due to "hyperinsulinemia" which is a situation where your pancreas is churning out way too much insulin in reference to blood sugar levels and is in the early stages of "burning out" the beta cells. Once burnt out, then the pancreas no longer produces insulin and then the symptoms of "diabetes" as most doctors would diagnose (high blood sugar etc) begins. But again, there are many and varied reasons for having low blood sugar, if your insulin tests are normal, then it's probably something much rarer, genetic or insulinoma or something.

    http://www.agsdus.org/html/glycogenandgsds.html

    This is part of what Dr Kraft is saying in the aforementioned video, high blood sugar is one of the final symptoms of diabetes, by the time this happens, much of the damage to internal organs, heart etc is already done. Anyone with blood sugar problems, high or low, should look at having their insulin tested multiple times within a 2-5 hour test.
     
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  20. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I still haven't had time to explore the links & videos here, but need a place to put this information. I keep running across this kind of thing when I'm looking for something else:

    These two quotes are from an article on treating the metabolic causes of diabetic neuropathy, found here: -http://www.podiatrytoday.com/blogged/why-you-should-consider-use-supplements-management-diabetic-neuropathy#sthash.v6v7XbvI.dpuf

    Inositol is a methyl donor.
    ALA is something I didn't tolerate for long when I tried it for chelation.
    Symptoms/risks associated with inositol deficiency, from http://www.acu-cell.com/bx2.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
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