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Methylation, SNP, Folinic acid intolerance help

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by AspireApex, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. AspireApex

    AspireApex

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    Starting a Methylation protocol and have some questions:

    I'm taking metafolin but holding off on the b12 due to high plasma levels (900+) with normal MMA - can I continue to do this or do I need to add in a methylb12 or hydroxob12 to prevent methyl trapping?

    A lab test/capsule endoscopy found inflammation in my small bowel, however, it does not seem to be related to crohns or UC of any sort.

    Many sensitivity issues with foods that began after I started large quantities of green vegetables (folinic acid intolerance?)

    Have random numbness in lower extremities.

    Plasma amino acids that are elevated are: Valine, Cystine, Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Tryptophan, Arginine, Proline

    VDR BSM Taq +/+
    MAO-A +/+
    MTHFR C677T +/-
    MTR A2756G +/-
    CBS C699T +/-
    CBS A360A +/-
    CYP1A1*2C A4889G +/-
    CYP1B1 L432V +/+
    CYP1B1 R48G +/-
    CYP2D6 S486T +/-
    CYP2D6 100C>T +/-
    GSTP1 I105V +/-
    NAT2 R197Q +/-

    Look at these SNPs, what other supplements can you suggest for me?

    I have access to any and every lab that is offered at Mayo Clinic - what labs do you suggest I get to try to figure out what is causing my problems?

    Thank you.
     
  2. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Personally, I would work first on healing the gut, before proceeding with any methylation protocol. It's likely that food intolerances are due to the intestinal issues, unless you've had problems with green vegetables your entire life.
     
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  3. AspireApex

    AspireApex

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    I plan to via immunomodulation - however, I have issues with B1 and various other supplements via the sublingual route which makes me think they is something metabolically deranged in my body that needs to be addressed.
     
  4. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I agree with @dannybex for the most part. Take a look at what is recommended for the amino acid results and see if you could do that, too, with the blessings of whoever ordered the tests for you. I've attached a couple of guides that Metametrix or GenovaDiagnostics have put out at various times. @caledonia may have done them one better with this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/nutreval-interpretation-guide.21468/

    For me there was a lot of seemingly contradictory advice, so I made a cheat sheet out of the oldest guide, also attached. I auto-formatted based on my test results - pardon that. It's not a substitute for a thorough analysis and professional help; it just helps you see if a supplement that is suggested to treat one thing is suggested to be avoided by something else you have.

    Crit
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    No doubt something is 'metabolically deranged' in all of us, but consider also that those reactions may be due to the binders like mannitol, citrate, etc., and not the actual vitamin.

    Also consider that different foods have different reactions due to other reasons. Green vegetables are very cooling. Sounds silly, but take the opposite: Cayenne or other types of peppers are 'heating', they cause sweating and 'hot' reacctions. Well, other herbs and vegetables can have opposite effects...

    I guess what I'm saying is it's probably unlikely that your reaction is due to 'folinic acid intolerance'.
     
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    That's what's been so frustrating @Critterina -- the conflicting advice offered by these testing companies / labs. I noted that there was no advice/recommendations as to what to do to correct your (slightly) high 3-methylhistidine levels. BCAA's might help, but they don't explain WHY the levels were elevated.
     
  7. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Oh, it so happens that I know what causes that: skeletal muscle catabolism. I was digesting my skeletal muscles to meet my protein needs. Never mind that every week I was eating about 2 lbs of red meat (lamb usually, on my elimination diet). Not digesting is not digesting. Yes, BCAAs immediately stopped the deep muscle pain and associated insomnia (and stopping the BCAAs made it come back like clockwork!) That's why it helps to have a professional on board, the one who ordered the test. She explained it to me. Long term, the answer was digestive enzymes and probiotics (although I had to avoid those that create histamine, like the ones in kefir, yogurt, and kombucha - all of which I was using at the time, thanks to A.O. Wilson). And eventually the 4R gut rebuild: first R for two years, last three Rs done together for 8 weeks. After that my lactulose/mannitol (a.k.a. leaky gut test) results were between 1 and 2 standard deviations.

    Well, good news after all that is that the last time I had an aa panel done, everything was within normal limits. I know my doc is not so hot on my taking all these supplements, but I think with that result he may not give me any grief over it.
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Consider oxalate overload and B6 deficiency. For more see http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/oxalate-dumping-a-probiotic-solution.37927/
     
  9. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @AspireApex ,
    Just looking at your high amino acids, I'm wondering if you do take BCAAs and if you have a B6 deficiency. And maybe Manganese

    I don't know the SNP, or even if they have found one, related to activating B6, but for me, it was key to use the P5P form, not the pyridoxine hydrochloride form. In fact, I was using the HCl form (100 mg/day) for a few months when that first set of tests was done.

    Also a note of caution, that B6 is toxic at too high dose and causes peripheral neuropathy (numbness in extremities, as you already describe). The recommendations I've seen are not to exceed 100 mg/day, although there is at least one case of that dosage being toxic in the literature. I found that switching from 100 mg of P-HCl to 50 mg of P5P took me from functionally deficient to "just fine".
     
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  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Six milligrams of P5P daily for 10 days made me hyperthyroid for a few days and then hypo. Since I don't take iodine, I had to stop it.
     
  11. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Was your amino acid profile similar? It could be you don't have the same difficulty converting pyridoxine to the active form. I was hypothyroid to begin with; I didn't see it get any worse.
     
  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Such test isn't available here where I live...
    I think plain Vitamin B6 blocked the conversion to P5P for me because I noticed disadvantages only from taking it. Perhaps because to dose was too high (thirty milligrams).
     
  13. AspireApex

    AspireApex

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    Hrm interesting about the B6 - I actually don't take any BCAAs but my B6 has always ran at the upper limit of normal without any supplements. My latest P5P (B6) level was 50 with a range of 5-50 mcg/L. How would one know if B6 was not being converted to the active form? Thanks!

    What kind of symptoms do you have with B6 deficiency?

    I originally thought it was the binders that I was reacting to, however, when I sublingually take the vitamins (under tongue for 10 minutes and then spit out/wash out mouth)I still get the reactions.
     
  14. AspireApex

    AspireApex

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    What do you mean by functionally deficient? Thanks!
     
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    From my personal observations, low B6 is also vital for insulin sensitivity (research: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23813101 )
     
  16. hvac14400

    hvac14400 fatty & acid : )

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    just why?
    i wonder why so many ppl here doin different kinds of freddd/rich/meth protocols :confused: so you thinkin you have sorta methylation cycle block, right? then why don't test it before doin something corrective? :D

    for example - how many ppl here got their homocysteine levels tested? there's no any "blocks" if your level low enough. and there's a bunch of other reasons for it to be high enough except that meth "block" btw.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2016
  17. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Most people don't have any symptoms of B6 deficiency for years and years, and then the nerve damage has already progressed to the point of numbness or peripheral neuropathy. Apparently some of this is reversible some of the time. Notice though, that the main sign of overdose toxicity is the same sign as for deficiency.

    Oh, if you use protein powders, like for shakes, they often have the BCAAs or components of them in the mix.

    What I mean is that the functions that would be performed by a substance aren't being performed. Vitamins are key in making chemical reactions happen. When you don't use up the reactants and they get elevated, or the levels of the products of that reaction are low, the reaction is probably not working so well. That is what I mean by functionally deficient.

    So, the questions is whether you are activating B6. It has to be activated to make the reactions go. You can have plenty of it in your blood (or whatever you test) but if it's not active, the functions it performs won't be performed. The reactants and products are the amino acids, so we look at what's high and what's low.

    The reason I think you're not activating your B6 is by which amino acid levels are off. On the cheat sheet I attached, if you look under the column for "Vit B6", the rows which say "up" are things that go up when you take Vit B6. Look at the rows for the amino acids you mention:
    Valine, dn
    Cystine, n/a but homocysteine dn
    Isoleucine, dn
    Leucine, dn
    Lysine, dn
    Tryptophan, dn
    Arginine, no effect
    Proline, no effect

    So, since these are high and most of them are lowered by taking Vitamin B6, that would be the logic behind it. Sorry if this is a bit of a pendantic, labored explanation.

    I'm amazed - you had your P5P levels measured? Does that really work?

    Crit
     
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  18. AspireApex

    AspireApex

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    Hey Crit, sorry for the late reply - brain fog can ruin days, even weeks!

    Thank you so much for your help and explanations.

    Yeah the P5P was performed at Mayo Labs. I also found that my B2 levels were extremely low (value of 1 on a scale of 1-18). This might be by my B6 isn't working aka activated?

    I am wondering if taking FMN will help B6 do it's job (among other things)...
     
  19. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Oh, I know all about brain fog - not that I remember so much of it, but I have a friend who reminds me. It seems my IQ was about cut in half. No worries for late replies - I'm often gone from this forum for months at a time.

    Coincidence? MY B2 levels were also very low. I'm not sure what the connection was, but it seems from my memory that something else I was taking would have been using it all up. That's probably more research than I can do right now, to figure out what that was. You could haunt my posts (maybe it's on one called something like "no love of B2). I don't think it was the B6 that was the association, though.

    FMN is B2; if it won't help your B6, it will help your B2.

    What seemed to help for me overall was to take a multi-B with active Bs, plus addiional folate and B12 (both methyl forms). There are two called B Healthy. One by Emerald Labs, one be Answers from Nature. I started with the Emerald labs and it was like the sun came out. Then I went to the Answers from Nature after my friend bought that and I saw it had everything the same except more of something - B3 I think it was. I tried it and liked it better, so that's what I still use. At this point, it's my only B6 (P5P) source.

    If you're interested in listing all of what you're taking, I might be able to recognize it; PM me if you wish.

    I wish you ever-improving health and days without brain fog!

    Crit
     

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