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Methylation roadblocks

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by therron, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. therron

    therron

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    I'm in the low and slow crowd. The reasons are as follows:
    *Many supplements cause excitoxicity, even with a tiny dose.
    *I have multiple genetic issues to work around (compound heterozygous MTHFR C677T and A1298C for starters)
    *I have to work, so I can't be laid up with terrible side effects (which might be considered detox by some)
    *My liver HURTS and fatigue gets worse when I push supplements

    Here is a list of supplements I can't tolerate AT ALL, not even low and slow (many are the very items I need for methylation)
    *SAM-e, TMG, methionine, l-carnitine fumarate, milk thistle, B-complex of any kind (even the ones without folic acid), multivitamins.

    Improvements so far (I think due to Methyl B12 and Methylfolate primarily).
    *More tolerance for stress.
    *Periods of better sleep.
    *Less swings in energy and mood.

    Not Improved
    *fatigue
    *brain fog

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, Freddd and Rich, but I believe that my liver seems to be at the center of my roadblock. I thought it was primarily my adrenals in the past, but I always have more energy in the morning. By afternoon, I fade. Every time I try to add methylation supplements or liver aids, I get horrible liver congestion and worse fatigue. It does not go away or recede unless I remove the offending item completely. My question is, how can I get my liver cleared of years of congestion before continuing the protocol? Other ideas? I have read about Chinese bitters and other such tonics, but I don't know if this would react just like milk thistle and make my problem worse. Does anyone else out there think that your liver is holding you back?
  2. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    I found I could not tolerate Methyl B12. I was waking up feeling dehydrated and nauseous. So I reread Freddd on just starting with Adenosyl B12 and titrating up. I am having dramatic success with this....so far :)

    Waking with no nausea, no dehydration, no brain-fog, most FM gone, less asthma and with energy!

    Note: I am taking all the required backup supplements too.
  3. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    So I reread Freddd on just starting with Adenosyl B12 and titrating up.

    Hi merylg.

    So what is it you're doing exactly - just taking AB12? No Methylcobalamin?
  4. therron

    therron

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    I guess I left out the part about what I AM taking. 400mcg Methylfolate, 500 mcg MB12, 1200 mcg adB12, plus vitamins A, D3, C, E, omega 3, calcium, magnesium, and small amounts of B2, B6, Biotin, zinc. I have workfor 3 months to get to this point on the Methylfolate and MB12, starting from crumbs and adding slowly. These items are not causing bad side effect any longer.....although I once in a while get the toxic liver feeling from these. Usually, it it when I try todd TMG, Sam-e, methionine, B-complex (Pure Encapsulations), l carnitine fumarate, multi vitamins, or milk thistle that my liver gets out of control. A lot of pressure and pain. Feels backlogged with substances trying to get through, but can't find the critical factor that will make this happen.
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, therron.

    I'm wondering if you have adequate bile flow. Are you stools light in color, or the normal brown color? Are you able to tolerate eating high-fat foods? Have you had an ultrasound exam of your liver and gall bladder?

    Some of the things that normally contribute to bile flow are glutathione, bile salts, lecithin, taurine and glycine. Glutathione is best taken in a liposomal form or maybe as acetyl glutathione, though I've heard from only one person who has tried that. Glutathione should come up without supplementation on the methylation treatment, but it might benefit from some help.

    I recommend that you work with a physician to evaluate the condition of your liver and to decide on treatment.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  6. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    I've recently been doing quite a bit of research on biotoxins, mold, bacteria, parasites, metals etc. I think they all need to be detoxed via the liver and if you're genetically poor at detoxing then you run into problems. Help get rid of them through things like FIR sauna, skin brushing, clay foot baths, castor oil packs, colonics and reduce the chemicals in your home by using natural products instead of the chemical-loaded detergents, deoderants, get rid of amalgams etc.

    http://betterhealthguy.com/joomla/blog/242-a-deep-look-beyond-lyme
    http://lymebytes.blogspot.com/2011/05/highlights-from-deep-look-beyond-lyme.html
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...s_files/Innovative%20Disease%20Protocols.pptx
    http://www.survivingmold.com/
    http://www.chronicneurotoxins.com/
  7. Vanguard

    Vanguard

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    When it comes to sublingual methyl-b12, do you guys know how long a typical dose should be held under the tongue? I read up to 45 minutes somewhere but that can't be right.

    Thanks
  8. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Well, Freddd says at least 45 minutes.
  9. therron

    therron

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    Hi Rich,
    Thanks for answering. Yes I have seen a doctor and had an ultrasound. My stool color is normal. I can tolerate high fat foods. It appears that the only things I can't tolerate are methylation supplements and other supplements. I don't think my bile is adequate. I haven't tried liposomal glutathione, bile salts, lecithin, taurine, or glycine (except in a Pro Thera multi which didn't agree with me). Keeping my low and slow approach, which supplement might be a next step? Other ideas.
  10. therron

    therron

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    Thanks for these tips. I do think "something else" is blocking my progress, and mold, bacteria, or parasites are likely culprits. I had a significant mold exposure about 10-15 years ago. My alternative physician wanted to try a biofilm protocol a year ago, but I couldn't find anyone who had been helped by the product, Interface Plus, so I opted not to be the guinea pig. I will keep studying along these lines. I do know that ciproflaxin "magically" and temporarily made my gut pain disappear after taking it for a sinus infection about 3 years ago, so I have been telling doctors that there is something alive down there. Olive leaf extract is the supplement that has worked the longest, about a year without significant gut pain............but now it's back. No lab tests have identified a species. Such a puzzle to unravel. Thanks for your input.
  11. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Sydney, NSW, Australia
  12. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    It's easier if you place it under your lips next to your gums. It will take longer for it to dissolve there.
  13. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Hi merylg.

    Sorry, maybe I didn't ask the right way. I'm familiar with the protocol. What I want to know is what is it you are doing differently that's helping?
  14. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    I'm not taking Hydroxy B12 or Methyl B12.

    I AM taking Adenosyl B12 Active B-12 (Dibencozide) Country Life,
    plus supporting supplements of protocol.
  15. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    How bad was your brain fog before starting this?
  16. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Hi Rockt,
    My brain fog is variable depending on what I am reacting to at the time, and is tied to my level of fatigue. I have issues with concentration an memory, particularly word-finding.
    I just tried to re-introduce Methyl B12 and had the usual bad reaction, so am brain-fogged again. Not sure where this leaves me in terms of continuing with the whole protocol. Sigh....(I have another thread asking Freddd for help please)

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?13699-Freddd-Help-needed-please
  17. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    I think Freddd is still away.

    Well, if you're doing better, (well, even, it sounds like), without Mb12, perhaps forgo it for awhile longer. Either that or titrate up very slowly.

    Strange how we all respond so differently. I started increasing Mb12 lately and slept 8 hours last night. 8 HOURS! I haven't dont that in years. Still feel like crap, but I'm taking it as a good sign.
  18. suzanne

    suzanne Senior Member

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    therron,

    I too experience hig up gastro pain when i take liver supplements and when I increase methylation supplements.

    I even get this when take a detox supplement of any kind eg liver, candida, parasites.

    This pain has decreased on the methylation supplements I now take- I have been on the increased dose of mb12 for 2 weeks, but it takes about 2 weeks for the pain to settle and it can flare again as soon as I ncrease or re introduce any of the above mentioned

    The pain I get is in the middle of my rib cage high up- it feels for me just like pancreatic pain ( I have had one acute attack of pancreatitis in the past). I suspect that for me, when there are more toxins being processed through my liver I get this pain at least as part of start up. So, I have gone slowly and now and can take milk thistle and a liver supplement without too much pain, but i have been working at this for 6 months now. At first the pain concerned me, but ater having mri's of that area i am assured that my liver and pancreas are ok- although apparently my liver looks a bit fatty, and there are indicators re my gut flora that the pancreatic enzymes and bile is insufficient, despite the pancreas mri indicating that all is ok. So, this all makes sense for me now that the pancreas gets sore when there are too many toxins passing through- a bit like a heeavy drinker getting pancreatic attcks when they have a binge ( oh, a binge would be nice!)

    I have had liver function tests and know that i do not detoxify properly and i am hoping that the methylation cycle supplements will help this.

    This is a long way of saying that at first I shyed away from taking the supplements that hurt as I thought I might be damaging my pancreas or overloading my liver too much. I now just go slowly with introducing the supplements that seem to overload me and am progressing, with less pain than i used to have. I think the key for me may be to improve the methylation cycle and hopefully this will also improve my livers ability to detox. I am also realising that my body is burdened with candida ( stool samples keep showing this up as a problem) so, I am slowly titrating on a supplement for this although i have a long way to go.

    I hope this helps.

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