The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Methylation results - any comments? Plus is Milk Thistle a good ammonia detox?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Bansaw, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    I got my Methylation Cycle checked out and it seems I need Support in these main areas. ("Support rating" is scaled from 1-10. 1 being not needed, 10 being most needed).

    [​IMG]

    Is Milk Thistle tea a decent option for Ammonia detox, if so which brand?
    (I don't do too well with capsules, pills etc as my absorption is poor.
    I do better with teas, sublingual, drops etc.)
    Any comments on the rest of my mutations?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
  2. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    I think you would be well off supplementing with cofactors as well as methyl supp.s. If anything, cofactors first. I would start with a good b multi that doesnt have folate in it

    Milk thistle is an overall liver protectant, im not sure that it directly detoxes ammonia as much as it does help your liver regenerate. Im sure others here can chime in wirh much deeper info than i.
     
  3. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Milk thistle also detoxifies. It can be quite strong in that way. I took too much for a while and felt weak and sick probably from too much detoxing at once.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Bansaw,

    AdoCbl is involved in ammonia management. Having functional methylation and ATP, preventing excess MMA is important.

    Methylmalonic Acidaemia (MMA) - Life and Nutrition
    nutrition.nutricia.com › conditions
    Metabolic acidosis and ketoacidosis are severe and high blood levels of ammonia, a waste product of protein breakdown, and the amino acid glycine can be ..

    After Methylmalonic Acidaemia can be diagnosed, serious damage is already done. It doesn't have to be anywhere near diagnosable for serious damage to be occurring. I had it and it damaged my heart, kidneys and who knows what else.

    Thats all about what the Deadlock Quartet is about, getting these systems working properly with enough methylation and ATP and managing Hcy and MMA so they are not damaging.
     
  5. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Hi Fred, thanks for your response, appreciate it.
    I looked at the link, - there is a blood test and urine test for MMA. I might look into that next time I see my doctor.
    Do you detox ammonia with a particular supplement which you've found successful?
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I do nothing at all for ammonia. It is a result, not a cause. I have corrected the underlying metabolism. All my symptoms of MMA have disappeared. The tests are worthless. They do NOT predict whether anything will heal it, they only tell you that your house is already burning to the ground with possibly permanent organ damage. I take MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate, the Deadlock Quartet, that a break anywhere in the cycles of those 4 items can deadlock the rest causing multiple organ breakdown. In addition lots of cofactors are needed. If not planned for, healing is stopped regularly with induced deficiencies some of which can end up in the hospital as it has for a number of people posting here. B12 deficiency sabotages 600 biochemical pathways in the body according to research. What enzymes work without ATP? What cells can form without methylation and ATP?

    My kidneys appear in process of healing and have improved considerably as has my heart. I no longer have congestive heart failure, FMS, CFS, edema, MCS, IBS, etc.

    If starting methylation and ATP and getting healing started don't clear up the ammonia then it will remain. What symptoms does it cause you? You can judge progress by how those respond. Going after ammonia without correcting the underlying problem. It's like fixing an air conditioner in the house while it is burning to the ground. There are hundreds of those kinds of things broken and they can't be fixed picking them off individually. Besides they don't stop the damage of non-working mitochondria causes. It's like hunting an elephant with a BB gun.

    What and how you correct your body is up to you. Starting methylation and ATP produces a generally predictable set of side effects that then are dealt with which then exposes the next layer of partial result and you fix those and then the next layer of partial results. After 12 years at it my "next" was copper deficiency. found 3 months ago.
     
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  7. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    thanks,- my symptoms are severe PEM. After aerobic exercise (even just 10mins) I feel good for a couple of hours, then I start to feel achy, heart palpitations, trouble sleeping that night. Next day really bad muscle aches, tiredness, mental fog. This lasts about 3-4 days. Now I don't do aerobic exercise, but just weight resistance and these symptoms don't manifest much.
    I was told by my doc that this is Ammonia, but I read somewhere else that it could be lactic acidosis.
    I just don't know. Now I did the 23andme test and found that Ammonia detox was a big issue for me. You are saying address the other stuff and that might address the ammonia as a natural consequence.

    I have read your protocol and was thinking about it. I also watched a video where Dr. Van Konynenburg mentioned your protocol too, and he said that the Deadlock protocol bypassed the Methylation Cycle and pushed it into overdrive. Did you make a response to that? I am still open to considering it. I might run it by my doctor (who has written a book on Methylation Cycle and Gut but I've yet to be put on a protocol yet.)
    All I am taking right now is Adeno B12 and hydroxy B12, Vit D, ALCAR.
    My iron levels are real low, as are my other minerals. ( I have poor absorbtion so I always look to drops, teas, powders in place of capsules and pills.) If I try and push Iron up, all that happens is that Potassium goes up. My copper is low too like yours..
     
  8. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    @Bansaw if you have a doctor you can easilly get a test for ammonia. Also, have you had a 23andme test? Freddds protocol can be very detrimental for some
     
  9. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Yes, I had 23andme just recently. My Doc signed up to this computer analysis whereby she fed the 23andme data in and the picture you see in my original post is a snapshot of some of the fist page of the report. I'm going to see her soon for a suggested protocol.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Rich also said that what I was doing went way beyond a simple methylation protocol. I was. It turns out that I do have CblC disease, adult onset that wasn't known to have an adult onset form when we began all this. I share an inability to use folic acid with lots of people here and even an inability to use folinic acid or veggie folates which he spotted as the evidence of a missing enzyme to which I found the workaround. In the end he agreed that I had found the only workaround for that.

    There are other posts in which he put the many more clues together and realized that I had activated an alternate pathway because to get the results I was using it had to be activated due to a missing enzyme. Nothing was overdriven. It became functional instead of non functional. I didn't jump in at those. I did literally thousands of short trials and titrations. What I did was correct both methylation and lack of ATP. He was in amazement that I worked through all that from titration trials and that I am healed of FMS, CFS, congestive heart disease and just about everything wrong. A lot of things are misinterpreted. At the time he wrote that he hadn't realized that MeCbl and AdoCbl can be delivered via diffusion and get better results than via HTC2. Also he realized that higher doses of methylfolate were required to activate the alternate pathways that still worked. Besides, I've healed. He could not say "It doesn't work" as I demonstrated that it did. I didn't just stumble into it. I learned all sorts of things that didn't work by going to 100+ doctors and they all failed 100% at diagnosing and/or treating it because none of their theories on B12 and folate were correct. You see, I think that most everybody here could be largely healed in a year or two, unless they think low potassium and low folate symptoms are "detox" or "overmethylation" and some other things. It's very sad to watch people chasing hundreds of effects instead of fixing the fundamentals. The thing that so many miss is that because of the "triage" levels of folate and b12, some levels can be producing the results of a working system and some are in deficiency at the same time giving paradoxical looking results and the attempts to understand that have yielded a lot of incorrect hypotheses. Has anybody using these hypothesis actually profoundly healed and recovered. I will be glad to participate in a 5 to 10k fast walk every day for a week, or twice a day every day for a week if anybody wants to demonstrate their healing from FMS/CFS. I also believe that NOBODY with FMS.CFS could do that walk repeatedly. I would be glad to host such an even at 7000 feet altitude with two weeks of camping to acclimatize to the altitude. I'm 67 now, 68 next summer. Who has recovered and would like to demonstrate that their hypothetical basis works? We could hold sessions discussing all these things that work and for who they might work if we have enough people who can demonstrate recovery. Then we can combine all the data, lifetime histories, and map out the pathways and have a more complete solution. Have fun.

    So when you take iron, you start building more blood and have hypokalemia. You demonstrate that iron is necessary for you as it's lack is holding up cell formation. Refeeding syndrome in action. You need to get the methylation working for the copper to work and demonstrate it's need. It does serious damage the longer you leave it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2015
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