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Methylation question - MAO++ - how do I raise serotonin ...?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Bansaw, Aug 2, 2014.

  1. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    My serotonin levels have been tested low (and it feels like it.... and actually my dopamine is not too high either).

    Anyway, I did a Methylation test* and was found to be MAO++, VDR TAQ++ and COMT issues too.
    So, I am trying to figure out the best way to wisely raise serotonin. I feel like a zombie quite often and have lost some of my mental sharpness and depth of thought.
    My adrenal glands were tested way low a few months ago and I am on a few things to raise them. I am actually feeling slightly more energy, but its this serotonin thing that seems to be making slow or no progress.

    My doc put my on DL-Phenylaline which helped a little (I think it raises dopamine a little). She wants me on some amino acod stuff next I think, 5HTP, NAC... etc. Don't know yet.

    I really react to methyl donors like coffee. Coffee freaks me out. I have a couple of minutes buzz, then a heavy tiredness in my brain. I read that VDR TAQ/ COMT people have to really be careful with methyl donors. Add MAO++ into the mix and I just don't know.

    Whats the wisest way to raise my serotonin? Are SSRIs like St Johns Wort to be avoided?



    *Methylation test results:
    +/- = MTHFR/A1298C | MTHFR/3 | MTRR/11 | BHMT/1 | CBS/C699T | VDR/TAQ1 | NOS/D298E | ACAT/1-02
    +/+ = MTRR/A66G(G) | COMT/V158M(A) | COMT/H62H(T) | VDR/FOK1(T) | MAO A/R297R(T)

    male, about 45yrs old.
    Bansaw

    Posts: 8
    Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:07 pm

    Bansaw

    Posts: 8
    Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:07 pm
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Bansaw,

    The best way to normalize serotonin in and dopamine is the Deadlock Quartet; MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate plus additional needed cofactors. One of the effects of these deficiencies is a literal DIMMING of the senses and moods. When these start happening again everything brightens up. When a person has perhaps 1% efficiency in and takes a supplement that takes it up to 5% of normal, that seems like a huge increases. When going from 50% to 55% it isn't even noticeable. Intensely perceived brightening is related to severe deficiency and dimming.

    The people I know who have recovered who had the dimming of senses all had to go through a brightening of all the same senses.

    Taking an SSRI is like patching the shingles on the roof before building the foundation, 1st, 2nd and 3rd floors and the roof. It might help one feel better but it heals nothing.
     
  3. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd, - is this deadlock quartet appropriate regardless of my gene mutations in MAO VDRTAQ and COMT?
    Or is this deadlock quartet therapy applicable to just anyone who has serotonin deficiencies?
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    The Deadlock Quartet is appropriate for the people with the following symptoms in my opinion. I work with symptoms that of course include all the influence of all the genes whether specified or not. Just last week a study was published showing that Schizophrenia is affected by 170 genes or thereabouts. I don't think that picking 3 genes out of quantities like that for a disorder has much predictive value. I have yet to see anybody get well by treating to gene interpretations. The knowledge isn't here yet.

    SYMPTOMS LIST 01/03/2014 V 1.0

    In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.
    These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.
    morning joint stiffness and painpalenessacid refluxnauseadaily vomitingstanding with eyes closed, lose balancehands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesiafeet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesiaglove and stocking anesthesianeuropathic bladderunable to release bladder, mild to severeunable to fully empty the bladderfecal incontinence - occasionally to frequentlydiminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possibletinnitus - ringing in earsalways feeling coldintolerance to loud soundsintolerance to multiple soundssleep disordersnon restorative sleepNight terrorsProlonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleepSleep paralysisalteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painfulalterations and loss of tastetaste hallucinationssmell hallucinationssound hallucinationsvisual hallucinationsalterations and loss of smellloss of smell and taste of strawberries specificallyloss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specificallyroughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth in mid wordblurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden returnVisual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual lossoptic atrophycentrocecal scotomatahypersensitivity/intolerance to bright lightintolerance to loud soundsintolerance to multiple soundsburning muscle paindiminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possibletinnitus - ringing in earssore burning tongue


    This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.
    These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
    Bursitisstomach not emptyingfrequent vomitingacid regurgitationdyspepsia flatulencealtered bowel habitsabdominal painloss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods nutrient specific anorexiaintermittent constipationintermittent diarrheairritable bowel syndromesores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any partanorexiaBulimiaHypersensitivity to touchHypersensitivity to odorsHypersensitivity to tastesHypersensitivity to clothing textureHypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptomsHypersensitivity to sounds and noisesHypersensitivity to light and visual stimuliHypersensitivity to blood sugar changesHypersensitivity to internal metabolic changesHypersensitivity to temperature changesburning bladder (no UTI)painful urgency (no UTI)burning urethra (no UTI)Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standardelevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)elevated LDHbig fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCVplatelet dysfunction, low countwhite cell changes, low counthyper segmented neutrophilsheadachesinflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungsinflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteriesmucous becomes thick, jellied and stickyasthmachronic cough that mimics asthma but isn'tchronic sinus congestiondermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rashfrequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over bodychronic infections, many varieties possibleSeborrhic dermatitisdandruffeczemadermatitisskin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurspoor hair conditionthin nailstransverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing startsmouth sensitive to hot and cold sore burning tonguebeef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normalsore mouth, no infection or apparant reasonteeth sensitive to hot and coldcanker sores

    with p5p added
    Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher

    These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.




    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem
    Plus Vitamin EChild with neural tube defects
    mother of child with neural tube defect
    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    lack of dreaming MCV > 100 outright macrocytosismacrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDSsplits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis



    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN
    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl

    low testosterone men
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile disfunction men
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN
    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl

    low testosterone
    low estrogen
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms



    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13, Version 1.1
    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
    1.Initially – Mecbl
    2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
    3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
    4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
    5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
    6.+1 year LCF
    7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
    8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
    9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
    10.+ 4 years remove TMG
    11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
    12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.


    These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Elevated CSF Hcy
    Low CSF cobalamin
    limbs feel stiff
    Drowsy

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
    Clumsiness

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin

    Slow to adapt to night vision

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF


    Difficulty in word finding


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    subacute combined degeneration
    axonal degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes
    Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
    Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
    Loss of sense of joint position
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    sudden "ice pick" pain
    decreased reflexes
    brisk reflexes
    Foot Drop
    tripping over toes
    injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
    general feeling of weakness



    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1
    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
    1.Initially – Mecbl
    2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
    3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
    4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
    5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
    6.+1 year LCF
    7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
    8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
    9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
    10.+ 4 years remove TMG
    11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
    12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.

    These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items

    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl


    weight loss involuntary
    muscular atrophy
    exercise does not build muscle


    L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

    weight gain, watery fat
    edema

    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatigability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to deathweakness
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS


    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


    exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    High urinary MMA


    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    congestive heart failure
    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated uMMA



    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1
    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
    1.Initially – Mecbl
    2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
    3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
    4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
    5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
    6.+1 year LCF
    7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
    8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
    9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
    10.+ 4 years remove TMG
    11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
    12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.




    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    shortness of breath, oxygen hungerheart palpitations

    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    weak pulse


    MeCbl - AdoCbl

    Confusion
    Disorientation
    Difficulty in word finding

    MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

    irritable
    depression
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    moodiness
    tiredness
    mood swings
    memory loss
    listlessness
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    dizziness - even unable to walk
    Vertigo

    MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
    Alzheimer's
    delirium
    dementia
    paranoia
    delusions
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    nervousness
    mania
    Widespread pain throughout body


    A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.
     
  5. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    Front Range Colorado
    Hi Bansaw!

    IIRC you were on the candidadietforum when I was as well, as suesullivan. Good to see you again.

    I can give you my experiences in starting on Freddd's deadlock quartet in the last 3-4 months, which may be useful to you as we share some snps. You are homoz for MTRR, some COMTs and MAOa. The MTRR snp means you are not recycling methylgroups as well as you should and will benefit from extra methyl groups, as I do. I'm doing well on mb12 shots as a result, but I did not start them until about 2 months in.

    Heartfixer, if you haven't found his methylation page yet, has great snp-by-snp breakdown on this page http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm What gets confusing is when you have multiple snps, which most of us do, that act in opposite ways. So read and re-read his page, as your brain fog lifts, is my advice.

    I blame my MAOa and COMTs for a lot of anxiety/mood disregulation and the early weeks/months of the deadlock quartet protocol were challenging for me, as a result. I had trouble tolerating L carnitine fumarate at first, particularly taken first thing in the morning. I halved the capsule, then I pushed back taking it to an hour or so after lunch, over time I was able to do a full capsule without feeling speedy/anxious and now I can take it first thing in the am with my first mfolate dose without problem. Getting ready to try two caps in fact.

    I also needed more mb12 and adb12 than I was taking, perhaps because I was pushing mfolate higher too fast, perhaps because I just needed it. Dropping back on mfolate and trying to keep it <= absorbed mb12 made a big difference, as did getting brave enough to take enough potassium, once startup began depleting my cellular potassium levels. Be alert for low potassium symptoms going in and don't be afraid to supplement. I've commented about my experiences with it in several recent threads and you can search my posts if you want to read more.

    I feel like I am getting significant, deep healing now, several months in, and I'm excited to raise dosages and make further progress. But I did have about two months of feeling worse and wondering if I wasn't doing myself ill by trying the protocol. I simply needed to tweak things and understand how my snps were affecting amounts of MB 12 vs folate, or else I needed to give my body time to adjust to the nutrients it was so desperately lacking.

    This is a great community for advice and feedback, so don't hesitate to ask if you are experiencing things that confuse or worry you.
     
  6. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    In addition to "The Freddd Protocol" I whole heartedly suggest going to Freetheanimal.com and checking out Resistant starch +probiotics. The end result is a "serotonin orgry".The perfect stools and wild dreams are not shabby either.
     
  7. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Hi Sue, yes indeed I was on the Candida forum. The diet there was very useful and I'm still following a low sugar, pretty low carb diet, although I do allow some fruit and don't react to that which is good. I probably still have some Candida but I'm not taking anti fungals. Anti fungals don't really fix things. More important things need fixing before the Candida is addressed.

    My doctor is a very good one. I drive 3hrs to see her. She's supposed to be a Methylation expert and does go to conferences etc but I'm disappointed that she only put me on DL-Phenylaline and not something more in-depth. What she has done is to help my gut absorption by giving me Zypan and she's gave me something thats helping my adrenal glands and testosterone levels. So, overall she's doing an OK job but the Neurotransmitters I felt she hasn't really addressed intelligently yet. I'll have to push he on this when I see her in a couple of weeks.
    I have an excess of mercury and lead in my system too but doc says the body will naturally chelate.

    Where do I get this Deadlock quartet from if I was to buy it? Is it over-the-counter stuff or Rx?

    Great to read that you are getting better.

    (ps: I am taking Methyl Protect too = Riboflavin, Vit B6, Vit B12, Betaine Anhydrus, CalciumFolinate, 6s5-methyltetrahyrdofolic acid.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Banshaw,

    The Deadlock Quartet; Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion MeCbl 1mg, or other 5 star MeCbl, Anabol Naturals Dibencozide (AdoCbl), L-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate (90%, 10% of people ALCAR) are the deadlock quartet. In order to know for sure and avoid certain conflicting answer results, avoid CyCbl, HyCbl, folic acid, folinic acid, folinate (and anything but l-methylfolate), whey, NAC, glutathione, MaxGL and similar products, precursor pairs for glutathione. Also avoid B1 > 30mg/day, B2> 21mg/day and B3 > 100mg/day and take b-complex in 2 doses per day. You can get all the specified products at http://www.iherb.com/?rcode=RED843. I buy some of my other vitamins there and certain bulk items I buy locally from Costco for instance, calcium, magnesium, omega3 fish oil, C etc.


    There are a couple of threads I suggest you read, from the methylation menu. There is a very complete one talking a whole lot about what is being done and why, and the levels of healing and methylation, and a less complete updated summary. I don't know how many pages back they might be. A good idea is to check your symptoms against the lists and you might have a better idea of how it all fits, or not.
     
  9. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd,--- When I see my doc in ten days she's going to want to put me on some amino acid therapy to increase my neurotransmitters. 5HPT, NAC and the like.
    Are these amino acids compatible with the Deadlock quartet or will they conflict (I see NAC might be)?
    I'm also taking some ginseng right now (for adrenals), coconut oil, kefir probiotic drink, Methyl Protect, but not much else actually in terms of meds/supplements.
     

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