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Methylation.... Protocols and Gains

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by place, May 8, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Cureminded,

    But how do you know for example that it's better for you to take 12 g of vitamin C a day instead of 4, 6 or even 8 g? I'm simply afraid to overdo it, but than again I'm worried that I'l miss the signs and won't take enough of what's lacking. Do you take an Ester C by the way? I thought regular vitamin C can cause stomach problems due to high acidity. 12 g must cause a lot of acidity.

    I determined my vit C dose the same way I determined the dose of everything else that provides a noticable benefit. Some things like calcium and magnesium, vit E and Lecithin, omega3 and selenium, I take according to a variety of theories, package instructions and so on. The things that produce noticable changes I take according to titration. That is how I came up with mb12,adb12, metafolin, potassium, some of the B separates and complex. I also am constantly re-evaluating. I get a variety of blood tests, in several combinations, each 6 months. I try to sort out the various things with my doctor and all sorts of ideas from people here and elsewhere. It was somebody on this forum that told me about Metafolin counteracting NAC and glutathione "detox" in a large enough dose, and B2. It was somebody on another forum that told be about the potassium and zinc and pantethine.

    I started vitamin C at 1 gram a day way back when my M-I-L, a long time PREVENTION reader, suggested vitamins to me to deal with my problems. Look at all my M-I-L stirred up. When I got up to 2000mg a day, my untreatable UTI of 2 years duration went away. When I got up to 4000mg a day the 6 streps per year plus pneumoinia every few years went away. When I got up to 16,000mg a day, the swollen glands of 15 years duration went away. After starting the mb12 and all that I decided to re-titrate as I was now much healthier. I went back down to 6000mg/day. In 5 years the perpetual swollen glands came back, I started getting colds and flu again (2 in two years, 4 in 8 years). I titrated upwards again and it took 12,000mg/day to normalize them again but is too early to tell about the colds and flu. I have no stomach problems with it and take the Costco Kirkland Vit C with bioflavinoids 1000mg. I couldn't begin to afford Ester C and see no need to do so.

    It's funny (well not funny, but interesting I guess) how you mentioned that your personality changed so much that though your marriage held up through your disease, but it didn't survive you getting better because your personality has changed so much. I'm very curious to see what's going to happen to me, since I feel that there's been a lot of change in my personality and I'm hoping that that can be corrected

    The personality changes weere from all sorts of reasons. The deficiencies did a job on me. At another forum the deficiency effect was called "Mr Hyde" and the non-deficiency state "Dr Jeckyl. Here, in dealing with some very specific thing it became clear that Mr Hyde was very much connected with limbic system b12 deficiency and then starting up the damaged limbic system made it worse for a while. I also am a Tantric Alchemist and did extensive inner spiritual work which didn't do much until I started healing and those changes hit all at once. Also I had a couple of dozen NDE experiences, some detailed over on one of the spiritual threads, several of which culminated with my return into this body as a thoroughly different person, literally in a matter of minutes. Also, as I generally healed I got more assertive and started sticking up for myself. One thing I have told people about all this is while many mood and personality changes do occur due to the biochemistry, that doesn't undo decades of experience. A lot of things can't be "un-done" but rather have to be enlarged upon and rebalanced. There is approximately zero probability that I will return to my early illness personaility that developed from birth until the acute phase happened at age 39. Whatever I am now is a new synthesis, not a return to something previous. People with paradoxical folate deficiency and genetic causes, whatever they are, of the active b12 deficiencies, don't have a former b12 and folate sufficient state to return to in any case.

    Another qestion I have, since you have kids. Do you have any advice as to what I should be supplementing my 1,5 year old son? I'm worried that he might have inherited some of my genetics and deficienciesin methylation, etc. (if I have these, which I think I do). I give hime Solgar kangavites multi. Planning to add C kangavites as well and Solgar has a fish oil supplement for kids that I want to give him. That's not optimal I guess, but it's the best I can come up with for one that can't and won't swallow pills.


    We gave our kids liquid vitamins but then the Metafolin and mb12 and adb12 were not avaialble. A friend gave her daughter a decent children's gummy vitamins with sublingual tablet pieces that her daughter sucked and chewed and always a larger dose before and after all vaccinations.

    Thanks for clarifying. I tried to swallow the pills during breakfast and not right after and realized that it helps. I realized also that milk somehow works better than water. Feels smoother somehow. Not sure whether that's beneficial for the uptake though.

    The advice I read that works is to eat 1/4 of the meal, take alternating pills and bites of food for the middle half and 1/4 on top. To avoid stomach upset I need a mix fo foods, too much protein such as meat or eggs alone and I vomit as do others.



    DISCLAIMER
    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.
     
  2. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Thanks Fred for your extensive reply. Have you ever thought of writing a book about all this? It would be great to have the information in one place and your story is amazing. I realize that it's constantly in flux, which makes it difficult to have a finished product. But still. I think lots of us would be thankful and happy to buy it and you could use the money for the supplements. Anyway you might think this is a crazy idea. I know nothing about book writing or publishing. It's just a thought.
     
  3. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Black is for 4wks, Green for 7 wks and Blue for 9wks

    Weeks/Months on Protocol: 9 wks
    Black is for 4wks, Green for 7 wks and Blue for 9wks

    Progress Made:
    Energy up by 4-9 out of 10, mfolate has giving me an unnatural amount of energy, like freakish. Freddd said I need to lower my mb12 while increase mfolate. I can always tell I have more energy when my sense of humor comes back. Energy is good but my mood is off. Not my witty self.
    Acne going away- its going, going and gone ( a few left but nothing to dwell on). Same as week 7
    anxiety about conversing with people gone- Has come back
    Less PEM crashing- I have no PEM
    Increased Muscle energy production- started taking 2000 of l-carnitine, solved it in 2-4 days. I feel like I'm building strength- weird I know. I should have some measurable physical outcomes soon. Definatly good. I can’t exercise for data as I think I sprained my toe! I just can't win!!!

    Symptoms Remaining or Gaining
    Chronic sinus infections- Mucus is thinning, yeah! But not gone.
    my memory is kind of worse- it was its best when on lovenox- so that is what I am judging it on. still bad. supper bad, getting worse. I can still say full sentences… and type so ..?
    Limited activities- not sure where I am with this, I have had a sinus infection the last week. So? Sick last week with flu and this week I injured my toe (chasing a frog!)
    Food sensitivities- trying to be good on this and not eat my heavy offenders. Still trying to be good.
    Still can't have a beer without repercussions =(- and I still cant. But I am staying off the sauce for other reasons so no big loss. Still off the sauce.
    Vision- This past month I have notice a ton of floaters in my vision, it's kinda freaking me out but I will need to do some research before I hit the panic button. This was totally taken care of by B2! I take it separate from my other b’s
    Sleep- not normal. I keep waking up at 6:00 am. I really like sleeping until 8:00 but my body won't let me now. So I roll around in bed for two hours. I still feel crappy when I wake up both at 6 and 8. But I think that has more to do with my constant sinus infections. One of the reasons I started Methylation was to improve my sleep. I purchased a fitbit to track my sleep. It graphs the times I am awake and moving. Not sure how applicable the results are but at least I have some kind of measurement. So I am getting any where from 3-4 hours of sleep with wake up times of 13-19 times with those being 15-20 minute long each. The nice thing about this is as I change my supplements I can see if it effects my sleep. I have a base line and I did try a muscle relaxer that did not effect it. It also tracks my level of physical activity so I can compare the level per day.

    Exercise- I feel like I have elastic lungs… Crazy I know. But I used to deeply inhale and the would get to a point and stop. Now when I inhale it feels like a balloon where I can keep inhaling and my lungs will keep going. I have NO PEM. I went running last week and that would have made the next morning very bad almost useless. Moreover, after a run, I would be done for the day. On the sofa. But now I rest for 1 hour and I am up making dinner or cleaning the house.

    Pain- I don’t generally have pain, it is well controlled as long as I have some exercise program. But the past year I have had this one spot on the outside of my knee that was growing in pain. Its one of the 18 pressure points. It’s starting to fade away.

    My Protocol
    Am
    50 DHEA Taking is down to just 50 a day
    2.5 Cortif
    1200 Fish oil
    100 Antibotic
    ALA
    1200 mucinex
    1000 C
    5 mg Mb12
    3 mg ADb12
    1000 Lcarintine
    25 Zinc
    500 Potassium
    400 CoQ10
    200 Magnesium (not sure the dose?)
    1600 Mfolate
    100 B2

    Noon doses
    B2
    800 Mfolate
    500 Potassium
    1000 C

    Afternoon (2 ish)
    1200 Fishoil
    olive leaf- I take this to prevent cold sores, it does a great job.
    50 DHEA
    25 Zinc
    E
    B- Complex- The one without Folic Acid
    1000 C
    TMG
    1000 L-carnitine500 Potassium
    200 Magnesium (not sure the dose?)
    1600 Mfolate5 mg Mb12
    5 mb12 (changed from 15 per day)

    PM
    75 Noritriptyline
    3 mg Melatonin
    1000 C
    100 Antibiotic
    5000 D
    10 mg Sigulaur
    500 potassium
    200 Magnesium (not sure the dose?)




    Through out the day I take more mb12 up to 5 of them and more potassium up to 3000. I take more if I need it.



    Short Summary:
    Last week had a ton of energy ( as I increased my mfolate another 800mcg). Now I am back to adequate energy but have this loss of confidence and task initiation avoidance. I avoid doing my daily tasks at work, and I really love work. Lost my ability to think. My memory recall and retention are near non-existent. This is all simple stuff. I have also felt depressed a bit. Some may think I’m crazy, but I think there is a bug going around because my husband had the same thing and I was a day behind as far as symptoms. I already take Noratriptyline and lexipro. Lexipro is known to turn people into morons, or in my case bigger morons. I kind of feel like I am on a mega dose but without all the happy feelings just all the scatter brain symptoms. So not so sure about this but it got me thinking…

    Dopamine
    § People with ADD have low dopamine (I have ADD)
    § Symptoms of low Dopamine
    § Loss of motor skills
    § Loss of ability to focus
    § Loss of memory

    Symptoms to too much Dopamine
    Increased excitability
    Increased anger
    Increase suspicion- some body is watching you!
    Prone to miss interpretations of other peoples attention (like everyone is talking about you/them)

    Methylation Section
    BH4 cycle - neurotransmitter
    Supplements: Tyrosine, BH4 and L-Phenylalanie



    Serotonin
    Linked to OCD, Depression, Anorexia, Social Anxiety
    Helps regulate sleep, libido and body temp
    Increased stress uses more serotonin than we can replace it
    Symptoms of low Serotonin

    Symptoms of low Serotonin
    Decreased Attention and concentration
    Scatterbrained
    Routine responsibilities become overwhelming
    Temper tantrums
    Bad thoughts (just negative, not homicidal)

    Symptoms of Too much Serotonin
    Insomnia
    Shivering
    Aggressiveness
    Agitation



    What I am going to take (or have taken) in the following order for the memory/mind, I have a feeling that everything else will fall into place (I hope)
    1. NAC- did nothing for me
    2. increase dopamine- L phenylalanine and L- Tyrosine – trying this week
    3. Sam-e
    4. Molybdeim (spelling?)
    5. Piracetam
    6. Aniracetams
    7. Brahmi
    8. Gaba at night - GABA in our brain is linked to being relaxed and happy. Having too little GABA is linked to the sleeping problem insomnia, and feeling anxious, stressed, tense and depressed.
    9. BH4 (if I can buy it?)

     
  4. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Nortriptyline has anticholinergic, alpha antagonist, and central antihistaminergic affinities, all of which can cause your cognitive/memory problems. TCAs are very dirty drugs, pharmaceutically speaking. They are also cardiotoxic.

    I would recommend you try something like milnacipran or reboxetine instead. Venlafaxine has only weak noradrenergic action, and is a strong serotonergic, so I would avoid that.
     
  6. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Indeed!

    Note that place is also taking a pure SSRI (Lexapro), so why not just combine the two into one?
     
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Ok, I missed that. I would actually choose duloxetine then, lol. It has a more equal balance on serotonin/norepinephrine.
     
  8. place

    place Be Strong!

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    ummmmm.... excellent points made by both of you ( preteding I know what you all are talking about). I guess I know what I will be learning this weekend... Seriously though, thanks for the responses, you two are my hero of the day.
     
  9. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    A good choice, too. There is also some limited research showing duloxetine's effectiveness for ADHD: Duloxetine May Improve Some Symptoms of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder.

    Another possibility would be to try the antidepressant bupropion just by itself or together with escitalopram. There is some very decent research showing effectiveness of bupropion for ADHD. For example: Bupropion for adults with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder: meta-analysis of randomized, placebo-controlled trials.
     
  10. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    What do you mean "of the day"? I thought we were your two heroes of all time! I am going to curl up and cry now...
     
    adreno likes this.
  11. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Well, I don't want to jump the gun, but I have been supplementing with 500 Tyrosine and L phenylalanine twice a day, and my brain is coming back. Not my witty state but not forgetting big words like: dog and help. Potassium levels are still a major issue with me. Every time I add a supplement I seem to have a spike in my need for potassium. ohhh potassium, why do you treat me so?
     
  12. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Problem with amino-acids is that they stop working really, really fast...
     
  13. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Right.
     
  14. place

    place Be Strong!

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    What? No! Why?
     
  15. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Oh more evidence! For the past month I could not cruz on the lap top in front of the tv. Look ma, I'm doing it! No problems filtering out the background! Maybe I can take tyrosine 5 days a week and 2 days off...
     
  16. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Have u thought about acetyl tyrosine instead on normal tyrosine. Its suppose to be absorbed better and lower doses needed for same effect, my experience is that it helps with mental energy and clarity.
    Also i have been using NAD sublingually and while reading up on this supp i have come across info saying it helps increase dopamine.
    Have u tried mucuna dopa(spelling??)? its suppose to help with dopamine and its on my to try list.

    cheers!!!
     
  17. determined

    determined Senior Member

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    Place, I'm really happy for you! You RAN??? How long has it been since you have been able to do that?
     
  18. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Hi Fred,

    What's the trace mineral supplement that you're taking and which brand of SAM-e?
     
  19. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Hi Heaps

    Can you provide any links on NAD increasing dopamine? I tried googling for some info but what I found was over my head. I know NADH can increase DA but I'm trying to find some confirmation that NAD can as well. Also. I understand mucuna pruriens can increase dopamine, but do you know if that also builds tolerance quickly like I know the amino precursers can?
     
  20. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Also, I could be wrong but I'm thinking any dopamine agonist, one can build tolerance fairly quickly on.
     

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