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Methylation.... Protocols and Gains

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by place, May 8, 2012.

  1. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Hey Hey Hey, Freddd,
    I know you split your B multi vit up in two does. I just have one during the middle of the day. And I did not start my B multi vit until 3-4 weeks into the protocol. I think that is why I got depleted and noticed a difference.
  2. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    Place, sorry if I missed it but what form (product name) of potassium and B2 are you taking?
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Place,

    I discovered the necessity of 2 doses a day as I had a number of entrenched 24 hour cycle items with the worst at the same time of day as the b-complex. I had a 24 hour pain cycle, energy cycle, heart arythmias and a few other things that escape my memory at the moment. I never did pin down the exact item(s) involved in the b-complex. For me glucosimine and chondroitimn are the same. Taken once a day it doesn't work, twice a day and it controls the pain in hips and knees.
  4. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    It seemed unfair to split B1 and B2 up. But we benefit from bananas in pyjama's suffering. :p
  5. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Hi Guys,

    Could you please advise which B2 you're taking? (Sounds like could help to straighten some of my annoying personality traits and make it easier on my hubby). Do you guys take manganese as well? There are posts on the "B2- I love" you saying that you should. I'm trying to figure out what to order for Fred's protocol and the more I read on the forum, the more confused I become. Makes a bad headache even worse. I don't mean to complain. I'm soooo thankful for all the info that everyone is sharing and Fred, you're amazing. Reading your story, made me feel rediculous feeling sorry for myself. Just really don't know where to start and I'd like to start fast, but afraid to deplete something by mistake or trigger too much of a detox which seems to be a normal thing. And I really would like to avoid making things unnecessarily worse.

    fred: I was hoping to get my GP to agree to order some tests at the ELN in the Netherlands (since that's where I live) in order to figure out what it is that I would need to get started on. Could you please advise which tests to take? (And what rationale to give for having these tests for that mater?) I was thinking it was only the methylation tests at 1st, but saw Marlene's results and what she did seems to be a lot more extensive. Would you be willing to read those and clarify (interpret I mean)?

    I started realizing just 5 weeks ago that what I'm experiencing is probably CSF. Haven't been able to find a doctor who understands much, did manage to find one who confirmed that it must be CFS since they couldn't find anything else. I was prescribed B12 (hydroxy) which seems to help a tiny bit and also l-carnitine (sigma tau) which made me hyperactive and restless like I'm on caffeine. So I lowered the dose for now. Does this mean that I probably needed it, do you think? Now I'm reading however that I could get more of a detox if I start the methyl and adenosyl B12. Does this mean that it's better to stop the hydroxy?

    I'm convinced that my symptoms are caused by a latent EBV infection, so was planning to start antivirals initially and decided to prep with vitamins, etc. to support better immunity, then read Rich's intake and yours and decided to try the B12 protocol and see what happens. After I saw the bigger picture, I thought I might try without the antivirals at first, since there is probably a larger problem at the base of things. The more I'd like to start with something, the more I drown in this sea of information though. I know I'm not the only one and that I'm lucky with you guys already having gone through so much. Still frustrated though and would really appreciate some advice on the starting point.

    Thanks!
  6. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Cure- There are two protocol's 1) Rich's 2) Freddd's. Both are similar but some people do better on one or the other. What is best for any given person? Genetics? Other factors otherwise unknown?. Either way you just have to be your own expert. It has taken me several months to learn.. well... not much... but enough to make progress.

    Roxie- The potassium is Now brand.. I don't think it matters much as most brands are effective. The B2 is Country Life- I can't have any yeast in my B's or it will increase my symptoms (not in a herx or improving way) of Fibro. I get really sick.
  7. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    Thx Place
  8. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Thanks Place! You seem to be very good in recognizing your body's reactions. Something to learn from.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Place,

    I ran into trouble with potassium yet again when I switched to mostly Potassium chloride. The same nominal dose as the potassium gluconate didn't produce the same results. Instead I had sort of a slow decrease increasing spasm episodes from once each 2-3 weeks to several a week, but more insidiously, a general malaise and tiredness and a feeling like my muscles congealed painfully each time I sat for an hour or so. This was releived in two days when I took amother 900mg daily, in 3 doses, of potassium gluconate.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Cureminded,

    The mb12 and adb12 with metafolin is the place to start, get those established and balanced with potassium, then a very caredful titration with the carnitine to control the strong reaction. The "detox" so-called is nothong of the sort. It is almost always plunging potassium becasue the supplemnts are working and then folate insufficiency. The bigger the reqaction a person has to these things the more deficient thay are.

    I don't think the tests are very helpful becasue all a lot of them do is show you any of hundreds of problems caused by the deficiencies and lead to incorrect conclusion. Chasing transient effects of deficiency is like chasing fairies. better to just remove the deficiency and 90% corrects, then yuoiu chase down what doesn't respond. That works much better.
  11. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Hummm.... I was just looking potassium and saw the various versions. I almost think each supplement needs its own thread. I was taking citrate and I just started taking aspartate. As I looked on other forums they tend to favor the Gluconate. I will try that next!

    I got this from Live strong website:

    Potassium supplements come in several different salt forms, such as chloride, citrate, gluconate, bicarbonate, aspartate and orotate. The type in your supplement may vary, but they are all functional in your system. If you take potassium aspartate, ensure that you do not go over your recommended dietary allowance. As a healthy adult, you need 4,700 mg of potassium daily, according to the Linus Pauling Institute.

  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Place,

    I recently found out the hard way that the forms don't all work the same. I favor the gluconate too, especially after trying the chloride.
  13. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Hi Fred,

    Thanks for the reply. The reason I felt I need the tests is that I´m quite brainfoggy and busy with my 1,5 year old son, so I don't pay enough attention and miss the signs. I´m not very consistent in taking the vitamins either, since I sometimes simply forget. Need to develop a better system here. The fact that my symptoms seem to jump up and down all the time, doesn´t help. It helps to read the signs you and others mention and start paying attention to these. E.g. I thought I was burning my tongue often lately for some reason which was weird. Now I start thinking that maybe it was something else.

    I thought the tests would be more objective than I am.

    Could you please also answer my question on the Active B12 Protocol Basics thread?

    Thanks!
    Cureminded
  14. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Hi Fred,

    Sorry, just realized that the basics thread needs to stay short. Deleted my question from that thread and posted it below:
    I am puzzled by the fact that no multivitamin is included in the protocol. My Solgar V2000 has just run out and I was planning on ordering most of the stuff for your protocol. (I already take zinc, selenium, vitamin C, etc.)

    Is it not beneficial in your opinion to take a multi? One without folacin I guess. Or is it that there are other agents that you are trying to avoid?

    With regards to the fishoils: wouldn't it be better to take 3-6-9 (from solgar e.g.) to make sure that there's enough of these omegas as well?

    Also I was wondering if you have any advice on how to deal with taking so many tablets? I try to drink a lot to fight dehydration, since I have a feeling that a lot of water is needed to process all the supplements and I get really thirsty. But I still sometimes get quite nauseous after taking a lot of pills at once.


    Thanks!
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Cureminded,

    With regards to the fishoils: wouldn't it be better to take 3-6-9 (from solgar e.g.) to make sure that there's enough of these omegas as well?

    I don't think so. Why pay $30/quart or whatever as supplemental oil for the normal dietary oils? It takes straight omega3 oils to get the ratio of the 3s to the level needed to be in balance with the usual dietary oils. Olive oil is a great source of omega 9 oils and palm, soybean, rapeseed (canola), and sunfloweroils supply omega6 oils.

    A nice steak is $5/pound. The same amino acids in capsules are hundreds of dollars. However, there are some things sometimes conspiculously missing from our diets or ability to absorb from dietary sources. Our bodies are supposed to be able to make plenty of carnitine from amino acids but obviously it doesn't. It's all those assumptions about what the body is supposed to be able to make or convert that get us into trouble.


    Also I was wondering if you have any advice on how to deal with taking so many tablets?

    Not really. I've had the urge to rebel against all those pills sometimes. I take them during meals, swall a few, eat a bite, swall a few more, eat a bite.


    Is it not beneficial in your opinion to take a multi? One without folacin I guess. Or is it that there are other agents that you are trying to avoid?
    I take a b-complex and a Calcium, magnesium, zinc and trace mineral supplement plus a fee separates. I have never found a suitable multi vitamin as to types, spurces or whatever. I take fish oil A & D, not synthetics. I take an 8 factor E. Nobody puts that in a multi. If I took a multi with 30 IU of DL-alpha I would still need a good vitamin e - 8 favctor. if I took a multu I would need 10 b-vits separates. And often unwanted things like NAC are slipped into a lot of multi items. iron in a multi blocks the b12 and E from absorbtion. Etc. A decent multi requires often 6 large capsules twice a day to get the needed amounts and it would still need another 20 or so separates with each meal. The multi minerals for instance are 3 maximum size caplets plus I take an addtional magnesium plus selnium and chormium. To get that does will still require 3 large caplets. I talke 6 large fishoil capsules. I take 12 grams of C a day. I take 24 or so potassium tablets daily. Sure, if I could get all the stuff in the multis, it might require a 20 caplet dose twice a day for a full multi vitamin and mineral and oil supplements. I'm also always experiementing, adding, subtracting things to see waht the differences are. A multi makes that near impossible. In a multi I would never have found paradoxcical folate deficiency or the effects of potassium and so half the people here would be suffering "detox" for years and years instead of quickly correctable induced deficiencies or whatever.
  16. paul80

    paul80

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    Hi place or fred, i just bought any potassium, i didnt know there was different types. The one i bought doesn't say any of the types on that list. it says "Amino Acid Chelate" though. Is this any use?

    Also i just checked the ingredients and it has about twice as much calcium as it does potassium. Very strange.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Paul,

    No, with that much calcium it could produce calcium caused tetany before gettting enough potassium.
  18. paul80

    paul80

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    I bought two bottles of it, what a waste. Guess i should have looked at the ingredients but i assumed a supplement called potassium's main ingredient would be potassium.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Paul, I have given away bottles and bottles of vitamins when I found that I couldn't use them, sometimes it happens that way.
    Not everybody has my requirements.. Those would probably be fine for sombody planning to take 1 or 2 pills.
  20. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Hi Fred,

    Thanks for clarifying. I tried to swallow the pills during breakfast and not right after and realized that it helps. I realized also that milk somehow works better than water. Feels smoother somehow. Not sure whether that's benefitial for the uptake though.

    What I'm puzzled by from you posts is how do you know that you're not overdoing it? I guess you must trust your body a lot and must be very sensitive to its responses. But how do you know for example that it's better for you to take 12 g of vitamin C a day instead of 4, 6 or even 8 g? I'm simply afraid to overdo it, but than again I'm worried that I'l miss the signs and won't take enough of what's lacking. Do you take an Ester C by the way? I thought regular vitamin C can cause stomach problems due to high acidity. 12 g must cause a lot of acidity.

    I realize that you can't get enough of the chromium and selenium and C and E, etc. from the multi. I just thought that it was a nice one to have for other stuff that you might run short of. I see why when you're experimenting with all the other elements individally, you may not want a multi in the equation. I realized mine included glutathion as well. Bad news... I'm waiting for my first order from iherb to come in and will start building up hopefully soon. Thanks by the way for putting reviews on their website. That was helpful. And thanks a lot for choosing one that ships outside the US!

    It's funny (well not funny, but interesting I guess) how you mentioned that your personality changed so much that though your marriage held up through your disease, but it didn't survive you getting better because your personality has changed so much. I'm very curious to see what's going to happen to me, since I feel that there's been a lot of change in my personality and I'm hoping that that can be corrected. Really curious about the B2 now. Will try to supplement it separately at some point.

    Another qestion I have, since you have kids. Do you have any advice as to what I should be supplementing my 1,5 year old son? I'm worried that he might have inherited some of my genetics and deficienciesin methylation, etc. (if I have these, which I think I do). I give hime Solgar kangavites multi. Planning to add C kangavites as well and Solgar has a fish oil supplement for kids that I want to give him. That's not optimal I guess, but it's the best I can come up with for one that can't and won't swallow pills.

    Cheers,
    Cureminded

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