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Methylation Pathway Panel--Which One?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ChetRoi, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. ChetRoi

    ChetRoi

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    Aggressively returned (polyneuropathy) numbness/stiffness has advanced from feet to upper legs and hands in a couple of weeks, showing no signs of stopping. Been on methyl B-12 for six months enjoying remission but unexplained quick return of symptoms is not responding to trials of mix of MB-12, methylfolate, and potassium.

    Looks so much like a methylation block. I believe a Methylation Pathway panel is called for. Which labs provide best quality with relatively quick turnaround?
     
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    The best test of your methylation function (as opposed to your genetics around methylation) is the Health Diagnostics Methylation panel. Contact their branch in NJ: http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/. This is an excellent panel but their turnaround is not quick.

    Sushi
     
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  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The HDRI Methylation Panel is good to show you have a block, yes or no, but I didn't find it that useful in terms of treatment. The Nutreval test, interpreted with the Nutreval Interpretation Guide linked in my signature is much better.

    You can also infer a methylation block from the Nutreval.

    Also try reading "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation Treatment" linked in my signature.
     
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  4. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    I know people who have taken Benfotiamine for numbness and had almost immediate relief.
     
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  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Did you change anything? Add anything, eliminate anything? What brand of MeCbl? Did you increase B1, B2 or B3?


    Let's think about what could be causing this. I have to have 30mg/day injected SC in 3 doses or I have that happening. Do you have foot drop? What about vibration test properly done? Balance? Awareness of position?

    Is the skin numb? Are muscles, such as in the feet, numb? Both in same places or different places? Do you think it is centrally caused or peripheral or something like a bulging disk? Did it take sudden discrete jumps or sort of a smooth steady change? Were there a variety of paresthesias as they got worse?

    Based on putting together multiple sources of n=1 published case histories and an n= thirty something on cyanide exposure and reversal by HyCbl, and personal experience, it takes about 2 weeks post methyltrap initiation to cause/increase CNS (brain/cord) demyelination.

    Do you use bismuth in any way, say as Pepto?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  6. jasrich

    jasrich

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    Do you recommend collecting specimens for the NutraEval on or off supps and meds like antihistamines?

    Thanks.

    Jason

     
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The Nutreval prep instructions suggest going off as many meds and supps as you can for several days before the test.
     
  8. ChetRoi

    ChetRoi

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    Hi Freddd--

    Here's my assessment of possible causes ordered from least likely to most likely. Oral MB-12 started, oral CB-12 stopped, Feb13. First notice (very subtle) of renewed numbness to feet start of May. However, other (successful methylation) symptoms such as pain relief from epichondolitis and CMC joint in late May, disappearance of symmetric rash dermatomes on front of hips (L1, L2, L3 dermatome area of overlap).

    0- Radiculopathy.
    1- Natural course of polyneuropathy, unknown etiology, notwithstanding methylcobalamin supplementation.
    2- Depletion of (2-3 months of) body stores of Adenosylcobalamin (halted on Feb 13), taken pre-MB-12 as cyanocobalamin.
    3- Methylation block, reason unknown.
    4- Methylation block due to four antibiotics given on May 17, two Intravenous, to fight candida which has progressed from mouth/ throat to bronchial tubes.
    5- Methylation block due to Candida albicans.
    6- Methylation block due to impact of both antibiotics and candida.

    And thanks for taking a shot at this, Freddd. I can send you my Excel spreadsheet detailing my daily vitals plus supplementation amounts and comments on reactions, if that would be helpful. But you have already been of considerable assistance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Let's consider depletion of AdoCbl. It takes 2-3 months without any for there to be a "startup" effect. AdoCbl processes the fats used in myelin formation. LCF carries the fats and causes many forms of cells to form new ones.. The cells have to reproduce to repair myelin. Many people have demonstrably separate MeCbl and AdoCbl, body and CNS, compartments. MeCbl in sufficient quantity is needed for nerve operation. According to Japanese studies 50mg (30mg injected per day works) these large quantities appear to up-regulate neurological healing. I would find that interesting and I may request it yet. Were there any bell ringers on it?

    I have to take a 50mg dose of AdoCbl once a week to keep body and brain working right. I can't feel a thing unless I go in excess of a month between doses.

    So what can block MeCbl/AdoCbl? Cyanide, glutathione, NAC, Nitrous Oxide, Metformin, folic acid, folinic acid, harvest time with a vegetable garden for some people, and indirectly all sorts of things that blocks folate.

    What can destroy MeCbl? Tetanus toxin, botulism toxin, arsenic, bismuth (complicated, rare) and probably others. I have never heard of antibiotics doing that (some viral or bacterial toxins, strep maybe?) Candida - I don't know.

    Assault on the immune system however does redirect MeCbl. Runaway infections of any kind can do it.

    I would suggest based on my experiences that 30mg of Enzymatic Therapy taken over 12 hours or so may at least show you if it is decreased MeCbl. You may be caught in the tug of war between triage levels. That is one of the things that can make these b12/folate symptoms look contradictory at times.
     
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  10. jasrich

    jasrich

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    The instructions do, yes, but my understanding is that Yasko recommends staying on supps to see how you are doing while taking what you take every day rather than trying to get a baseline for what isn't really your baseline if you take supps every day.

     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jasrich,

    If a person has been taking methylation supplements there is nothing to be gained by going off of them.. It would take perhaps a YEAR to get back down to the real baseline. A few days off merely makes it impossible to interpret meaningfully. It isn't baseline and it isn't current state that way. It is a mishmash that will just need to be repeated so you know where you are NOW on the current supplements. If a person is doing the Active B12 protocol, methylation startup (MeCbl and Metafolin) generally happens generally within an hour or two and there is no question that it has. The same is usually true of ATP startup AdoCbl and LCF. It starts quickly and lets you know. Both of those give you naked eye startup. Induced low potassium and donut hole paradoxical foliate deficiency also confirms that cell formation has started.
     
  12. ChetRoi

    ChetRoi

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    @Freddd. I'll start the first of several trials Monday/Tuesday designed to determine which co-factor stops the numbness advancement.

    First will be your suggested 30mg of Enzymatic Therapy (chewables) taken over a twelve hour period. I will have the product by Monday evening and can start Tuesday morning.

    Q: I am expecting to get blood work results back any day now, including the serum folate level. What amount of Methylfolate would you recommend with the 30 ET chewables? Would you recommend doing a second day, repeating the ET dosage, if a response from the first course is not detectable?

    BTW, my source on candida and Methylation:
    http://mthfr.net/methylation-inhibited-by-candidas-toxin/2012/09/08/
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi ChetRoi,

    I find that starting with 4 tablets and adding 2 per hour, squishing and moving the remains of the others around. Absorption is proportional to time in contact with tissues. To maximize possible effectiveness I would suggest about 5mg of Metafolin just before the first set of tablets and another such dose in 5-6 hours. MeCbl by itself will have noticeable results for people with symptoms at about 75%, going to 85% with Metafolin and improving response by improved retention. What this test does targets the CNS and deep penetration body. The CNS effects are much more subtle. The next move is to try the 50mg dose of AdoCbl (again steady and spread continuously across 12 hours). Again, unless you have reason to need caution with LCF (anxiety, Parkinson's personality characteristics) taking an LCF capsule on an empty stomach 30 minutes before eating that day will improve the odds of the AdoCbl response. Then, again taking LCF in the morning try the Metafolin and MeCbl again if there was not success the previous time. Partial ATP block is enough to prevent methylation startup, especially in the brain.


    Interestingly in my experience most people have separate startups from both AdoCbl and MeCbl, often both body and brain. Many can get some AdoCbl startup with MeCbl as that conversion happens more often but it is rarely complete. For many, there appears to be almost no AdoCbl conversion to MeCbl and instead it blocks the MeCbl. There isn't a problem for one day.

    I have found best effectiveness is to take a large dose of AdoCbl once a week, skipping one of my 3 daily injections and substituting AdoCbl. I've been working on this problem for 10 years with the AdoCbl and it has taken a while to work through a lot of possibilities looking for optimum healing.


    I didn't know that about candida, but it sure seems to fit and makes sense. Thank you.
     
  14. ChetRoi

    ChetRoi

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    OK!
    Is there a better AdoCbl than the 3mg sublingual from Seeking Health that I have used?
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex 10mg to the best of my knowledge and no reports of something making a difference over it.
     
  16. ChetRoi

    ChetRoi

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    Three days on this protocol and success is clear. Numbness in arms/hands/fingers markedly reduced. Upper legs now with light numbness, lower legs reduced numbness, even soles of feet marginally better.

    Thank you, @Freddd, for your recommendation. BTW, I had very few side effects, mainly intermittent sleeping, also restless legs the first night.

    I'm inclined to continue at this level but perhaps taking pills every two hours (over a 12 hour period) instead of every half hour, and doing the AdoB12 once a week, in place of the MeB12. I would continue this for at least a month, to give the probiotics (Saccharomyces Boulardii + MOS) and Biotin a chance to work against the candida.

    What do you think?
     
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  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Way to go. It sounds good to me. I'm glad it has turned things around. Watch for those induced deficiencies. Now to give you a few numbers to hang your hat on.. In that 12 hour or so period, that averages out to be above 100,000pg/ml, the approximate concentration to get that CNS penetration that is so critical. This now gives you an effectiveness watermark for testing other brands, injections and so on. That rapid turnaround of neurological things is what makes that qualitatively 5 star MeCbl. I found that not all MeCbl injectable is 5 star. In fact about 1 in 5 batches or so were a full 5 star rating.

    I'm sure your immune system will be much improved in this period. With this as a "tuning" point when you try other things, the current "most limiting factor" , and there can be several of those along different pathways, it is generally felt as quickly as this change was. That is what makes rapid progress possible. It is a game of skill. Find the things that improves these things that are currently improving. Most of these symptoms ought to be "good" for a year or more of such aiming point use. It is the level of MeCbl that is driving the CNS healing. How are your muscles? Heart? Those are often the next triage layers to improve from here, if they have a problem.
     

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