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Methylation observation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Charles555nc, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    OK, so Im on a large amount of vitamins but despite all that, I noticed this...Gluthione boosters cause me to crash HARD, often with massive headaches, skin break outs, muscle pain, etc.

    Glutathione boosters:

    Reduced glutathione
    NAC
    Alpha Lipoic Acid


    AND, that methyl folate bring me out of that glutathione induced crash over a couple hours. Also, I noticed that if I take just one NAC and half a tablet of methyl folate, Im fine, but that if I take half tablet of methyl folate and 2 NAC tablets in the morning, that I crash later in the day (with a massive headache and skin blemishes).

    Methyl folate seems to be a limiting factor for methylation in glutathione restoration and possiblely visa versa.
  2. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    If that is the case -- why take them? Just focus on the methylation sups? I had major startup troubles and found that they were not caused by glutathione depletion, but in fact by magnesium depletion. My oral magnesium wasn't abosrbing, I had to switch to transdermal.

    For others, it may be other deficiencies. Unfortunately now I seem to have developed a problem with hair loss!! :confused:

    hixxy
    taniaaust1 and Gavman like this.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    The glutathione and the NAC cuases severe folate deficiency followed by mb12 and then adb12 deficiency.
  4. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    So Fredd, is it worth taking glutathione boosters in the long run for CFS? I also take mb12 and adb12.
  5. RosieBee

    RosieBee

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    Andrew Cutler (toxic metal protocol) warns against taking Alpha Lipoic Acid in doses that may cause toxic metals to relocate.
  6. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Charles: I'm fairly certain has a completely anti-Glutathione/NAC stance. No doubt he'll contradict me now that I've said that!!!
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    My guess is you're boosting your sulfuration pathway with the NAC/ALA/GLUT, which causes a higher requirement of methyl groups.
  8. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    Because Im not entirely sure the methylation angle "will naturally cause glutathione levels to rise". As I said before (you really should read poeple's posts before replying), perhaps the system is two limiting factors?

    The theory...
    Without methyl folate, glutathione cannot methylate, and perhaps without glutathione, methyl folate cannot methylate. If you take alot of one, the other builds up, but little methylation occurs, because the other has run out.

    The solution to the theory
    Take moderate dosages of both, with the other mb12 and adb12 to return glutathione levels to normal and keep methylating.
  9. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Sorry about that. Is it possible you have a problem further down the transulfuration pathway? B6/magnesium? Or maybe Dr Yasko is right and some us have CBS regulations that causes it all go down the metaphorical drain.

    The only reason glutathione would be needed to make more glutathione is if you're supplementing hydroxob12 and glutathione is so low that the methyl group transfer from 5MTHF to cobalamin isn't working properly.

    There's a thread about this somewhere. Think it was late last year by Rich.

    I'm certainly no expert here. Just trying to work through things myself. Throwing some ideas out there.
  10. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    If I take too much methyl folate, I get this strange pain in my spine.
    If I take too much glutathione, I crash hard and get headaches, skin problems.

    If I take 600mg NAC and 400 mg methyl folate in the morning, I have very few negative symptoms. But if I go over that amount, then the balance tends to break.

    Appreciate the help Hixxy.
  11. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Yes but what about methylb12 / methylfolate blanace and are you going enough potassium & magnesium.

    Fredd might be able to help you with this stuff better. He seems to only be here intermittently at the moment.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Charles,

    I wouldn't. Depending upon how much and how long appears to determine how much actual damage it does, including brain damage. It removes essentially all unbound b12 from the body in hours bringing methylation and cell reproduction to a hard stop in a couple of hours preventing healing and causing damage. As you say, "crash HARD, often with massive headaches, skin break outs, muscle pain, etc" One researcher I talked to said "TOO DANGEROUS TO TAKE IN ANY FORM". It totally prevents most healing while taking it and causes a worsening deficiency. It's dangerous.

    As taking the these vitamins and minerals restoreing methylation also restores the production of glutathione there is not a need to take it.

    As mb12/metafolin restore methylation in less than 24 hours typically there isn't a long wait.

    One comment, Alpha lipoic acid is desireable for how it assists l-carnitine fumarate for the Kreb's cycle among other things. It's not a precursor like NAC. It doesn't raise it to unnaturally high levels. Vitamin C also assists as does mb12 and folate.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Hixxy,

    When a person's body has a lot of delayed healing and the nutrients become available the healing starts. Potassium runs out quickly. As little as 50mcg of mb12/adb12 can start healing requiring methylfolate and potassium. One must titrate. Magnesium is required but no unusual amounts typicall but individual vary. The numbers on potassium that keep coming up for those who do this is about 1200-3000mg and many in the 1800-2400mg range. That looks very "normal" to me, the type of distribution that would be expected on a nutrient need of this sort. The thread I started on the balance looks at these numbers and asks for contributions so we can get a better idea of the of what the balance looks like.

    At a very preliminary point I would say that peoples patterns on folate are pretty clear. There are the ones like me with folinic acid (veggie folate) paradoxical folate deficiency that have to take large doses of methylfolate to overcome the added folic acid and veggie folate of their diet. Then there are the ones that need to take only enough Metafolin for the healing who have no trouble with folinic acid. The question of folic acid PFD isn't yet placed in there. Perhaps that will show up at 7.5mg or so. The potassium turns on by layer of healing. So far there apear to be independently started with different requirments, epithelial tissue layer, immune, blood, muscles, peripheral nerves, central nerves.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Charles,

    Let's talk about pain and neurological healing. Neurological healing can be very painful and unpleasant. First when there is enough methylfolate and methylb12 and adb12 to get the nerves working but they are not healed they can hurt like hell. This is all perceived with nervesa that are working better than they have in some time. The NAC simple absorbes the mb12 and keeps it from getting the nerves functioning and casuing the methylfolate to be expelled from the cells (methyl trap) and thereby preventing the nerves from healing. The NAC will keep you from healing the nerves.
  15. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    So the pain in my spine after taking >400mg methyl folate is likely nerve healing?
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Charles,

    I can't imagine anything else unless there is something genuinely wrong (disk, nerve damage, tumor, etc) that the numbness was covering up.

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