Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Methylation for over-methylators - advice needed

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by GoodVibesOnly, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. GoodVibesOnly

    GoodVibesOnly

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    Hi I am relatively new to posting to PR.

    I have read and watched a lot of videos as reading a few papers on methylation and think I may be classified as an 'over-methylator'. It has taken me a while to get my head around this but I think I am getting there (very slowly).

    So can someone please help me out here - being an over-methylator does this mean that I would tolerate reasonably well the methylation protocol or vice versa?

    I have bought some supplements to begin and before I hit go just want to make sure I have this point correct.
     
  2. GoodVibesOnly

    GoodVibesOnly

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    Okay from the descriptions below, I think I actually more closely resemble a under-methylator (my urinary organic acids profile also seems to back that up...)

    http://alternativementalhealth.com/articles/pfeiffer.htm

    Over-methylation

    Many persons who suffer from anxiety along with depression are over-methylated. Methyl is an important chemical group consisting of one carbon and three hydrogen atoms (CH3). Over-methylation (too many added methyl groups) results in excessive levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin. Typical symptoms include chemical and food sensitivities, underachievement, upper body pain, and an adverse reaction to serotonin-enhancing substances such as Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, St. John’s Wort, and SAMe6. They have a physical tendency to be very depressed in folates (a form of folic acid), niacin and Vitamin B-12, and biochemical treatment focuses on supplementation of these nutrients. These persons are also overloaded in copper and methionine (a sulfur-containing amino acid) and supplements of these nutrients must be strictly avoided.

    Under-methylation

    Many patients with obsessive-compulsive tendencies, "oppositional-defiant disorder7," or seasonal depression are under-methylated, which is associated with low serotonin levels. They generally exhibit seasonal allergies and other distinctive symptoms and traits. They have a tendency to be very depressed in calcium, magnesium, methionine, and vitamin B-6 with excessive levels of folic acid. These under-methylated persons can have a positive effect from Paxil, Zoloft, and other serotonin-enhancing medications, although nasty side effects are common. A more natural approach is to directly correct the underlying problem using methionine, calcium, magnesium, and B-6. SAMe, St. John’s Wort, Kava Kava, and inositol (a natural sugar alcohol) are also very useful in treating these individuals.
     
  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Hi,
    do you know you are over-methylated solely based on symptoms? Or did you run some test?
    I ask because for example I have a mixture of problems from both profiles (over and under) but my methylation panel definitely shows a low methylation status (low SAM, high SAH, low GSH).

    I don't think it's that easy to just use these two categories of methylation to describe the complexity of all those symptoms and underlying causes.

    There could be many other variables, so many... In any case for so called "over-methylation" (which is usually just lots of anxiety) you could try Niacin or Niacinamide. Dr Ben Lynch recommends one or more 50mg doses until the symptoms are under control.

    It's also worth saying that Dr.Lynch recommends that approach when going too high with methyl-folate or methyl-B12. If you're not using these products or the anxiety is caused by something else it may not work.

    Cheers
     
    minkeygirl likes this.
  4. GoodVibesOnly

    GoodVibesOnly

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    Hi Peter
    Thanks so much for weighing in.

    I initially thought I was an OM but then looking at my Urinary Organic acids profile seems to suggest I am an UM i.e. low GSH, Serotonin and just lowish in everything else but suspected high dysbiosis from certain markers.

    Yes I have read and watched a lot of Ben Lynch's stuff which has really helped me.

    The question above I realise is now imp bc I think I may have bought the wrong MethylFolate. I bought the product linked below from Methy-Life:

    http://www.methyl-life.com/methylfolate-5.html


    But I think now based on reading up more on methylation @Freddd posts that I likely needed the quatrefolic version below:

    http://www.methylpro.com/product/5-MTHF_Quatrefolic_10mg

    So confused right now so if anyone can weigh in would greatly appreciate that?
     
  5. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Hi,
    the standard dosage of folate is around 200-400mcg (micrograms), so the problem might be related with the dose you're taking.

    I am not sure if you started with the 5mg or if you cut it in smaller bits, in any case starting up with a milligram dose is typically a good way to get side effects :woot::D

    Methylfolate is pretty strong and lots of people report anxiety and wired-ness starting on a high dose. It would be best to start lower, see how it goes and gradually add a bit more and watch what happens.

    Also, methylfolate must be accompanied by adequate B12, be it hydroxy or methyl form. IIRC Dr Ben Lynch suggests to start with B12 first (couple of weeks?) and then add the MTHF later.

    As regards Metafolin vs Quatrefolic I don't think there should be much of a difference, they are just two different salts of the same basic substance. I've tried both, they both work okay.

    cheers
     
    GoodVibesOnly likes this.
  6. GoodVibesOnly

    GoodVibesOnly

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    Hi @PeterPositive

    Apologies - Just saw your emoticons and realised I am not making myself clear

    I am by no means taking 10mg of methyl-folate. Currently I am just researching supps to begin my protocol and to make sure if based on my organic acids profile if I should be taking metal folate (last minute nerves).
    I think I am a UM based on my markers and persistent depression. That said as you clearly pointed out, I also have some symptoms that fall into the OM camp which I understand is very normal due to lack of homeostasis (sp) and occasional shifts from one state to the other. On the whole though I think I am an UM and as you correctly point out will start slow....
    My plan was to maybe order some Seeking Health lozenges as follows to begin before hitting the big guns with the methyl-life.com or methypro.com type products.

    My current proposed supplement schedule looks as follows:

    Previously taken:
    B12 (Previously took Cyano but will take Methyl/ Adeno this time)
    Green Vibrance super food drink
    Multi-vit Detox Protein drink (6 mcg Methyl B12/ 200 mcg Metafolate)
    B-Complex (no B12/B9)
    Fish Oil - EPA/DHA/GLA - 2g
    Vitamin D - 5,000 iu
    Chromium (up to 500 mug/ day)
    Magnesium Malate - build up to 400-600 mg over 3 doses a day

    New Stuff:
    Methyl Folate
    P5P - 50 mg
    CoQ10 - 200 mg
    R-ALA - 200 mg
    NOW Super Digestive Enzymes (incl Betaine HCL & Ox Bile)
    Vitamin C - 2g (Magnesium Ascorbate at night)

    Might Try down the line:
    Electrolyte balance (K & Na)
    L-Carnitine Fumarate
    D-Ribose

    The plan is to start with the things I have previously taken together and add the new stuff slowly.

    Thanks once again for taking the time to help. Really appreciate it.
     
  7. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    I recently experienced over methylation rage. @PeterPositive helped me get through that with his advice. I ended up taking niacin for most of that day and was finally "back to normal" the next day.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  8. Envellloppe

    Envellloppe

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    The broad classifications of over and under-methylation are grossly inadequate, I think. That's made clear in situations like this. Based on the mix of symptoms that many have from both categories --not to mention the overlapping symptoms in each-- and the specific enzymes that we know affect methylation in different places, it's not possible to say one's systemically under or over-methylated and have that mean any one specific thing without knowing where in various chemical cycles those variations in methylation are taking place.

    Your case sounds similar to mine - seemingly under methylated in most areas, but certain strong "over-methylation" symptoms in areas likely having to do with high catecholamines, like dopamine. This suggests possible degraded COMt performance, from my limited understanding of things. And that's technically COMt being under-methylated (or under-methylating dopamine/norepinephrine, which is the process needed for their disposal), again, if I'm not mistaken in my limited understanding.

    So perhaps a better question to answer, in my case as well as yours, is: how can we support methylation in the folate and methionine cycle, but also deal with or limit the inherent increase in the catecholamine portion of the neurotransmitter cycle?

    Does that make any sense? I'm new to this.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015
  9. GoodVibesOnly

    GoodVibesOnly

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    @Envellloppe This makes so much sense. This appears to be my issue and as you state the challenge is how do I resolve both issues comfortably and smoothly.

    Just wanted to ask if you have also done and organic acids test ?
     
  10. Envellloppe

    Envellloppe

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    I haven't, and it's becoming clear I should. I came to this forum in researching MTHFR and associated mutations I've discovered through 23andme testing. It seems clear that testing of various bodily compounds is the essential thing to do to determine what's going on, and in turn, what is being changed by taking various supplements. But genetic SNP testing is quite nice in addition, to see where in various cycles one may have enzymes that are performing "abnormally."

    In my case there are some minor-moderately impaired MTHFR, MTRR, and maybe CBS (but the evidence seems to point to CBS not mattering) enzymes, and some potentially more impaired COMT functionality.
     
  11. GoodVibesOnly

    GoodVibesOnly

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    @Envellloppe that is so interesting bc I appear to be in the situation where I have done the organic acids but not the 23andme test. Also after all my reading, my suspicion is that I may have some issues (not an epigenetics specialist) with my COMT/MAO genes as these are the ones which regulate neurotransmitters and oestrogen metabolism i.e. my two main stumbling blocks, which have the most visible symptoms. Very crude generalisations here on my part as relates to my symptoms but please bear with me.

    I had planned to do a 23andme but there seems to be conflicting information as to whether they are continuing to provide this information?

    BTW I strongly urge you to do a Organic Acids Test, it provided me with some peace of mind as well as some answers (although not all). Genes I feel are part of the story but actual test results fill in the picture.

    In my case I have a history I feel of having been ex;posed to toxic environments as a child as well as growing up in a hugely dysfunctional family. The science today is now showing that the latter two can leave markers on a persons genetics. For example in my case a traumatic childhood can lead to over-methylation of certain genes which may explain the discussion we are having now.

    http://knowingneurons.com/2013/03/0...the-intersection-of-dna-and-childhood-trauma/

    Again I new to all of this so apologies for my clumsy guesses???
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    HI Minkeygirl,

    I am not familiar with anything that might be called "overmethylation rage". The rage I am familiar with is in people who have "anxiety" as part of their symptoms on a normal basis along with a certain extreme caution approach to things, the rage is then a part of a sequence, usually starting with increased anxiety, going to anger, then rage, then perhaps homicidal rage and then fading to extreme depression. Most of the time it is associated with AdoCbl and most frequently LCF or ALCAR. Occasionally somebody who converts MeCbl to AdoCbl well has that hap[pen. That appears to be an ATP startup, possibly deadlocked by partial methylation block. It appears to be associated with a hypothesized limbic system damage from decades of MMA production in the brain and short on ATP. If your experience doesn't fit this pattern I would be interested in hearing the details. Excess B3, niacin, tends to dramatically increase the need for folate shutting down methylation, and healing very quickly
     
  13. Envellloppe

    Envellloppe

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    [Bold highlights are my own]

    Could you restate the part I bolded? I'm having trouble fitting AdoCbl (coenzyme b-12) as a cause for this within the framework of the methionine, folic acid, etc. cycles I know of. I would have thought methyl-cobalamin could do this due to the excess methyl group that'll be donated and available to processes like dopamine production, in the same way other generic "methyl donors" are described as doing. But AdoCbl doesn't have this denotable methyl group, supposedly. (I'm far to long out of organic chem classes to tell from its model if it'll easily give up any of its other methyl groups, aside from the obvious missing one where methyl-cobalamin has its key methyl group.)
     

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