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Methylation, folate and Candida/yeast overgrowth?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by kraken, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. kraken

    kraken

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    Came across a post which said folinic acid could potentially be bad by promoting fungus growth. I wonder if there is any connection here, is it bad to take Methylfolate if you have Candida overgrowth? Anyone who have can relate to this?

    I'm not fully sure I have Candida even though many things indicate it, my tongue is yellow/white coated, puffy face/stomach problems (for years) and a line of other symptoms. Never heard about it before but now it could make sense. Recently since starting Methylation protocol I've had pretty serious problems with my breathing. Shortness of breath is whats bothering me, some days its better some days its worse. I'm taking from 500-1000mg potassium a day so doubt that it would be the problem. I'm at around 2,5-3 mg Folate/day.

    Lets say I have problems with Candida, do I have to stop Methylation and fix this first? It's a shame because I do feel very much better in a lot of ways since starting. Also I've read that many of the symptoms I have could indicate Candida die off reaction and it eventually will pass so that leaves me a bit confused on what to do. On that point, I've begun supplementing Grape seed extract recently which potentially could explain that. On the other hand, I did a stool test before starting methylation and it came out fine (as the doc said). I didn't ask specifically for Candida though as I didn't know what it was around then.
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Hi, for what it's worth I have never heard of a connection between candida overgrowth and folates. Sounds very unlikely, imho. Where did you read this? Was it backed by studies or other substantial evidence?

    Candida is not very easy to detect even in stool, so a diagnosis may require advanced stool testing + symptom assessment. I was told I had candida years ago, then did several tests and it never showed up in any tests. Nor did any other type of yeasts. Symptoms of candida can overlap with those of dysbiosis, sibo, ibs etc...

    You said you're taking 2-3mg of folates do you also take B12?
  3. kraken

    kraken

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    @PeterPositive, it was this paper published (way back in time though) http://www.dosfolat.de/literature/DOSFOLAT_Mohr_e.pdf

    Maybe sort of vague but still interested to hear if others had some experience regarding that. Trying to rule out some side effects. Even though they might overlap with other conditions as you say it could be hard to determine.

    Anyways, I started Grape seed extract for GABA/Glutamate balance a week ago and now I've noticed exactly the same symptoms as when I was on Probiotics. Didn't realize it back then but all my symptoms could apparently be die-off from Candida (had to stop Probiotics because of it). GSE is anti-fungal and many people use it to treat their Candida.
  4. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    @kraken the paper you linked to is about folic acid not methylfolate. I don't know if there has been much research done on Candida and methylfolate.

    I'm not saying this is what you need, just relating some of my experiences. I too had the coating on the tongue. I had symptoms that indicated Candida and was quite convinced I had it. I may still, I'm just not as positive as I was before. The coating on my tongue started to disappear when I started taking Deplin levels of methylfolate. My digestion improved as well. I also take large amounts of b12. Are you taking b12 with the folate? The two need to work together.

    Something else I've noticed with the large quantities of folate I seem to be releasing histamine. This has been mentioned by others on this board. I'm not sure how to make both work together. But maybe something like that is causing the breathing problems. HIT (Histamine Intolerance) and/or Mast Cell Activation might be some other things to look into. I noticed both have similar symptoms to Candia.
  5. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

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    I think grape fruit seed extract is the antifungal.
  6. kraken

    kraken

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    @Phred, yes I know its folic acid but I was thinking if it were to apply for methylfolate as well? I have no idea. In addition to folate I am taking around 2-3 mg of B12, 2-3 mg AdenoB12. I do take P5P and Zinc too. Curious to hear, you say Deplin levels..are we talking 7,5 mg or 15 and how long did you stay at that dosage? It gets very expensive when upping to that dose. I was up to 10 mg but my stomach kept getting worse as I recalled it. Now I seem to be doing pretty good around 2-3 mg except my current issues.

    High histamine/intolerance is another thing that I've been looking in to and sure many symptoms I have would describe that. It also runs in the family.

    @stevesayshi, damn youre right, cant believe how I missed that...Must be the coconut oil then which I've started eating lately that potentially would cause die-off symptoms
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  7. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    @kraken I take between 16.8 and 19.2mg of folate. I also take 14mg of mb12 and 5mg of adb12. With that I take 50mg of zinc. I do NOT take copper with it. I found that taking copper made my "Candida" symptoms (if that's what they were) became almost debilitating. I would double over with stomach pain. It was awful. It wasn't an excessive amount of copper, only 2mg. When I stopped, the candida type symptoms decreased. I can't say they went completely away, but they decreased.

    For antifungals you might want to try olive leaf extract. I was taking that for awhile too. Once I started upping my folate to the high doses I didn't need it anymore though.

    As for histamine intolerance for myself I'm not really sure what to do. Looking at the diet one has to follow for this would be too severely limiting for me. I'm already gluten, dairy, soy, corn and yeast free. Giving up nightshades and leftovers (my lunch is always leftover dinner from the night before) seems very daunting. I would rather find the balance between folate and histamine levels than restrict my diet even more. @ahmo has mentioned that when histamines get too bad for her she takes a b12. So I think I'll look into that. Allergy season is just about to begin here. The last snowfall we had 2 days ago has all melted and the buds are starting to come out. If the b12 works I will have extra on hand to combat the histamine.

    Oh and just to mention @triffid113 is the one who wrote about needing large doses of zinc to help with allergies. I started taking the larger doses last summer and it helped significantly. So maybe keep that in mind for your own allergies. Zinc Picolinate is suppose to be easier on and/or more easily absorbed by the stomach. That's what I take and it seems to work well.
  8. kraken

    kraken

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    @Phred, thats a lot of folate. I have 0,3 mg Copper for every 30 mg Zinc (L-OptiZinc by NOW). Actually looked for a supplement with low copper content. Very recently done a blood test as well which will include Zinc and Histamine plus some other stuff so eagerly waiting for the results! Maybe I'll follow advice about large doses when I know my blood levels. As for a Histamine diet, I never thought about that, but I have cut out tomatoes and some other stuff that are histamine producing/releasing. Agree that putting yourself on a strict diet wouldn't be fun at all, very limiting.

    I do react very badly to Alcohol even though I often tend to drink pretty heavily at least once a week. Face goes tomato, very annoying stuff as it doesn't look nice at all. It usually settles a bit when I've drinken a fair amount. I'm thinking this is either Histamine release or maybe some stomach/Candida reaction. Sucks!
  9. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    That much copper at once would make me throw up :).

    Taking zinc without copper can be seriously dangerous, though. You might want to look into taking smaller quantities of copper and/or dividing the dose between several meals, instead of not taking it at all.

    I sure can relate to this! But once I got started, I found that sticking the leftovers in the freezer overnight instead of the fridge was not really too bothersome. It does limit what I make, since some things freeze better than others. But it has helped my health a lot, so it's been worth it to me. YMMV, of course.

    I didn't realise they were connected! This forum is so awesome :). How does avoiding a methyl trap fit intp that?
  10. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    I have no idea if they are, but if there is a relationship I'll find it. I have to! Spring has finally started here in Ontario and my allergies started bugging me yesterday. That of course stated the histamine problems. I lowered my folate to settle the histamine. That was a mistake as now I"ve buggered up my neck and can barely turn my head to the right. This was one of my bad symptoms and it's definitely reared its ugly head. So frustrating.

    Too much folate and I have histamine problems. Not enough folate and old symptoms come back. Which evil do I want to live with? <shrug> Dunno.
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Phred I've had excellent results eliminating histamines with some inexpensive supps: rutin, royal jelly, quercetin, mangosteen. Mangosteen is my most recent addition, and now that I've started it, I've eliminated the quercetin, which my body preferred less than the rutin and royal jelly, and which has a high(ish) sulfur content. I'm histamine-outbreak-free for the first time in more than a decade. cheers, ahmo
  12. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Hi Ahmo,

    Would you mind giving me an idea of the quantities of some of these supps? The only one I've heard of is royal jelly and I'm not sure I saw it as a supplement.

    Any help would be great. Thanks.
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Phred. I self-test for all my supp doses. I've been doing it since I became ill, so I have good confidence in it. Caledonia has linked a youtube vid for this, but my notebook w/ all my links (my life!) is currently N/A, so I can't provide the link.

    I've had great results w/ just 1/day, in the AM. In my detox process I initially took 1 in AM and then another of each rutin and rj at midday after my coffee enemas. This has been a huge help. Once I worked out that my toxic feelings post-enemas was histamines + ammonia, I began taking the supps straight away and eliminated the spacey, jittery, irritable feelings. After some weeks of this, I now only need a single dose of each at midday. Clearly the process has shifted things, I'm less toxic.

    I don't know if this is applicable to you, but I posted elsewhere that I've just started taking Neuroprotek. It's been designed for mast cell release of histamines in the brain, and contains rutin + other things to get it across blood brain barrier. Since starting this 3 days ago, I no longer test + for rutin. Yay! It's also allowed me to eliminate some other things, and decrease some others. I'm v impressed. If that's also part of your profile, I posted my experience on this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-rutin-especially-luteolin.28707/#post-455895 :)
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Phred I've just re-read your query. I take royal jelly in capsule form, from iherb. Paradise brand from iherb.
  15. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    @ahmo Thanks for letting me know about the royal jelly. I was going to ask you a couple of questions yesterday, but I was out for the day.

    I did find most of the stuff you were talking about. The only one I'm unsure of is the mangosteen. Do you get this in capsule form or take it as juice?

    And I just want to understand, so you take the mangosteen with the royal jelly and rutin? You don't take the quercetin with the rj and rutin? If this is correct that's good because the quercetin is expensive.

    I looked at the neuroprotek. That is expensive too! According to their weight dosages I'd need to take 6 pills a day. One bottle would only last 10 days. With the amount of folate I'm taking their is no way I could justify this cost. The cost of all these supps is bad enough, but the duty on them is killer!

    Thanks again for your help. Oh and thanks for the link to that thread. What a wealth of information. It's going to take a couple of days to process it all.
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Phred. Since starting mangosteen, I no longer test + for quercetin, so it's back in the cupboard. And since starting the Neuroprotek, I'm no longer taking the rutin. Neuroprotek contains rutin, formulated to cross blood brain barrier. So I'm taking 1x rj, 1x mangosteen. Following my enemas on those days, w/ my breakfast on days off.

    I know Neuroprotek is expensive. For me, the cost of postage is as much as the product.:( I only decided to add it when I came to the point of doing everything else, and wanting some improvements to my mental functioning. I'm not using the weight guidelines. I felt it after only a single cap. With this, as w/ all my supps, I self-test for doses. So far it's been 1 AM, 2 PM. Last night, it was 3.I believe this is because it's provoking/promoting another level/wave of detox for me. I judge this by my coffee enema experience. After 4 months, I felt I was nearing the end of the process, things were pretty quiet. After the 1st dose of NP, there was increased activity, which has continued and increased over the last couple days. So I don't know the action, but my experience suggests it's allowing something to move out. Best to you, ahmo
  17. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    @ahmo, I'm placing a couple of orders today so I'll give some of this stuff a whirl and see how it goes.

    I will say that things have calmed down a little. I lowered my folate for a few days to try to give the histamine response a break. That helped. My eyes didn't feel like they needed to be scratched with forks. However this started a slew of other problems, mainly acid reflux. I've raised the folate again and the heartburn is gone. Thank god! So far the histamine responses are limited to small bumps on my skin that aren't hives and aren't itchy, just a little unsightly. I was even able to eat french fries from a fast food vendor on Saturday. It's nice when little bits of your "previous" life can come back to you.
    place likes this.
  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Phred
    :thumbsup::balloons::balloons: Re folate and histamine: I know what you mean about forks and eyes. I've had remarkably good and consistently good response on the occasions when I increase folate and develop these symptoms to immediately popping a 1mg B12. It's worked for me every time. I sometimes, but not always, incorporate this additional dose into my ongoing B12 total. That is, eg. last night I noticed hair loss in my brush at bedtime. Time to increase folate. this time I didn;t even bother waiting to see if there would be histamines. I just put the B12 into my gum and went to sleep. I had to get up a few hours later to take some K+, but no histamines. cheers:hug:
  19. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    potassium makes my candida very bad. i avoid it even while on the methylation protocol.
  20. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    @acrosstheveil @Phred @kraken how do you define candida overgrowth symptoms? Do you also notice unpleasant breath with those? Have you tested if your saliva smells good or bad when the candida outbrake is happening?

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