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Methylation cycle?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Fuzzyhead, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

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    I tested positive for gastric parietal antibodies and high rheumatoid factor and my gp said people usually have pernicious anaemia with this but my vit b12 levels were high with taking supplements so he said I wasn't.
    I havent been well for a few months nausea, loose bowels, fatigue, depression and losing weight. My gp did my bloods and I had raised liver enzymes so he ordered further bloods which were ok and I am waiting for an ultrasound scan of my liver.
    I have been looking into gastric antibodies and it says it can inhibit your use of vit b12 and also people who take ant acids long term which I do.
    Can my bloods be showing high levels of vit b 12 but my body not be using it properly and just shedding it?
    How can you find this out?
    I have ordered some methylcobalamin and methylfolate to try.
  2. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

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  3. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi Fuzzyhead,
    Once you start supplementing with B12 the level of serum B12 doesn't say anything about how deficient you are, and if deficient it does not say anything about the seriousness of the B12 deficiency symptoms. Once you start supplementation the serum B12 does not say anything about how much of B12 is stored in the body, it does not say anything about your capacity of using B12. All it says is that you have been supplementing. The same applies to homocysteine, the Holo-TC test and MMA or uMMA: the results don't say anything once you start supplementing.
    After supplementing B12 the parietal antibodies can be false-negative too BTW. Apparently you were lucky.

    I'm sorry I don't know much about gastric parietal antibodies and nothing at all about rheumatoid factor. All I know: the presence of parietal cell antibodies is predictive of the presence of autoimmune gastritis.
    I don't know why your GP wants a scan of your liver, in my humble opinion he should focus on the stomach, gastrine level, maybe a gastroscopy, the label Type A Chronic Gastritis comes to mind. But hey, I'm no expert.

    Let's restrict myself to the thing I do know.
    By looking at your complaints, the symptoms. In my country the protocol is that B12 injections should be given to see whether there's some kind of improvement. If so, you were B12 deficient.
    Please read the thread about the B12 documentary (and watch the video). It's got useful info about B12 deficiency.

    Start at a low dose, and take your time working your way up. You'll probably need the other vitamin B's as well, AFAIK all B's work together. You may need potassium as well.
    Please read the threads about methylation. Or even better: read as much as you can. :)
    Good luck.
  4. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    That is, when someone has been supplementing vit B12.
    If someone has not been taken B12, for months or even better for years, doctors rely on tests.
  5. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

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    Thankyou xara for replying. I think my gp ordered an ultrasound of liver was because my liver enzymes were high. My gastric parietal antibody test I had done last June and I am waiting to see an immunologist. It does seem more like a stomach issue, I see my gp tomorrow and I am going to mention it all.
  6. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

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    Where do I find the thread about the b12 and documentary?
  7. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Fuzzyhead,

    Read this thread. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/page-17

    Low folate can cause many of these problems, and there is no level of serum b12 that indicates that a person won't have responsive symptoms to the right kinds of b12, brand and form. MeCbl and AdoCbl and L-methylfolate and K-carntine fumarate are offten needed to correct a lot of things. Look at the lists of symptoms with deficiencies specified. More are being added.
  9. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    As for the liver enzymes:
    Ah yes, sorry, somehow only the scan made it to my brain.
    As for seeing your gp and mentioning it all: I'd like to stress I'm no expert when it comes to parietal cell antibodies and autoimmune gastritis, I do hope you're having more to refer to than just me when talking to your GP tomorrow. :) But I certainly do hope you'll succeed in convincing him/her that a possible B12 deficiency just because your B12 levels are high is NOT a good thing to do in your case.
  10. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

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    Just seen my gp and he went through all my bloods. No hepatitis etc. He had tested for autoimmune stuff and gastric parietal antibodies came back negative this time. I said it was positive in June but he said its not now. I mentioned if my body could be storing vit b12 but not using it and he said no because ny red blood cells would be large and they aren't. He said wait for ultrasound on my liver and if it's ok just take my bloods again and see if my liver enzymes have gone back to normal. If its still high to see a liver specialist.
    I am stumped as what to do! Do I take the methy b12 and methylfolate and ignore the high vit b12 levels in my blood?
  11. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi Fuzziehead!

    Quite a disappointing visit! Pity.

    Like I said:
    After supplementing B12 the parietal antibodies can be false-negative.
    It was positive in June, you can't simply ignore that, to my knowledge there are no false positives.
    About the red bloods cells being enlarged. That's not true. IIRC that's also mentioned in that video I advised you to see.

    In 1990 Lindenbaum, Stabler et al published 'Clinical spectrum and diagnosis of cobalamin deficiency' in which they wrote that 44% of the examined patients with a B12 deficiency had no anaemia, 36% had no macrocytosis.

    I have understood that because of that (i.e. no anaemia and no macrocytosis in many cases) Pernicious Anaemia isn't the best name to use, PA is confusing. It would be better to speak of Addison-Biermer's disease, at least that's what I have read.
    Perhaps googling 'Addison-Biermer's disease' will lead to information that could be helpful when talking to your GP next time.

    I'll give you some links too, leading to studies written in the English language and English sites. I have more studies in my own language, but that'll be no good for you when facing your GP.

    I guess that there are articles amongst them you'll dismiss as being unrelevant. But I have learned that in some of those unrelevant articles there can be information hidden that might impress a Dr.

    I have not read them all, sorry. I just hope you'll find something that will be useful to convince your GP to act differently.
    I have these articles from a Dutch site about B12 deficiency, the man behind it is familiar with doctors who are in the dark when it comes to B12 deficiency. So I think most of the links are worthwhile.

    I know some of the articles provide information concerning the best treatment that differs from the things you'll read here, on Phoenixrising.
    You'll have to be the judge on what's best to do, and what's best to supplement, after having read information given here on Phoenixrising.

    If I were you I'd ignore the high B12 blood level and start supplementing.
    I myself am using methylB12 and Methylfolate (and a lot of other things). But people here don't always agree on what's best the best approach. It's all very individual, what works for one does not work for the other. Brands, amounts, etc. You'll have to figure it out yourself and see what's best for you.
    Please do read the threads and protocols about methylation, and follow the link Fredd has given too. It gives a nice insight in the local disagreements too. :)

    Pernicious Anaemia
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/pa-artikel-eng.pdf

    Vitamin B12 Deficiency
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/979.pdf

    Challenges in the identification of Cobalamin-Deficiency Polyneuropathy
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/1296.pdf

    Neuropsychiatric disorders caused by cobalamin deficiency in the absence of anemia or macrocytosis.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    Diagnosis
    http://www.dach-liga-homocystein.org/EN/Fachinfo/B12/diagnostik.htm

    Functional Vitamin B12 Deficiency Represented by Elevated Urine Methylmalomic Acid Levels in Patients with Migraine
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/Migraine-MMA.pdf

    Recurrent Seizures: An unusual manifestation of vitamin B12 deficiency
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/epilepsie.pdf

    Catatonia and other psychiatric symptoms with vitamin B12 deficiency
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/ActaPsychiatrica-2003.pdf

    Homocysteine, folate and vitamin B12 deficiency in neuropsychiatric diseases: review and treatment recommendations
    http://www.dach-liga-homocystein.org/Fachlit/konsensus/neurodegen_EN

    Plasma vitamin B12 status and cerebral white-matter lesions
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/EMC-laesies-B12.htm

    In vitamin B12 deficiency, higher serum folate is associated with increased total homocysteine and methylmalonic acid concentrations
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18056804

    Total homocysteine and its predictors in Dutch children
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/Am-Journ-Clin-Nutr-2006.pdf

    How I treat cobalamin (vitamin B12) deficiency
    http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/112/6/2214.full.pdf

    Disorders of cobalamin (Vitamin B12) metabolism: Emerging concepts in pathophysiology, diagnosis and treatment
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/Solomon-B12-2006.pdf

    Cobalamin-responsive disorders in the ambulatory care setting: unreliability of cobalamin, methylmalonic acid, and homocysteine testing
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/Solomon-blood-2005.pdf

    Laboratory Diagnosis of Vitamin B12 and Folate Deficiency
    http://home.kpn.nl/hindrikdejong/Snow-B12.pdf

    Vitamin B12 deficiency Support Group (Charity)
    http://www.b12d.org/

    Vitamin B12 deficiency
    http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/9339/20862.html

    Many articles on Vitamin B12
    http://vitaminb12.researchtoday.net/g
    roxie60 likes this.
  12. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

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    Thankyou for all that info xara.
    My methyl b12 came today and waiting for the methylfolate to come.
    I watched the video and saw it said bloods don't show the true picture. I kept saying to my gp it was positive last time and he just kept saying well its fine now so don't worry.
    Can I ask how the methyl b12 and methylfolate has helped you?
    I started at the end of november with vertigo/dizziness, pressure in the side of my head, headaches, extreme fatigue, nausea, loss of appetite, bad depression, brain fog and i have no clue why. I am just looking for things to try.
    Had m.e for 12 yrs and I know my symptoms and limits but all these are worse and new.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Fuzzyhead,

    Do I take the methy b12 and methylfolate and ignore the high vit b12 levels in my blood

    I would be dead now if I had listgended to "too high" with b12 over 900pg/ml. In one study, the average person having benefit from MeCbl was over 700pg/ml and the highest 1500pg/ml before treatment. Mine is manitained at over 50,000-100,000pg/ml in oder to keep my CNS from progressive degeneration. My body alone would be fine at 1mg sublingual a day. "High" in a cobalamine test is a statistical artifact. It means that 97.5% of those measured had lower cobalamin levels. That is all it means. It says nothing at all about what ot takes to heel. In fact it is clear that even 900pg/ml is not enough for many body things to heal. It aslo has all sorts of junk cobalamins (plants), leftover after detox cobalamins, temporary specialty cobalamins for a specific usage, etc. It says NOTHING about the MeCbl and AdoCbl needed in serum for diffusion supply to tissues for general healing.

    Your docs comments about otherwise you would have red blood cells is NONSENSE and only goes to show how ignorant your doc is of the whole matter. That is so 1955!
  14. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

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    Its all confusing. Is it not dangerous to take methyl b12 if my bloods are reading high and my liver enzymes are raised?
    Also do you start with one at a time or all together? I have got jarrow methyl b12 1000 mcg to start with.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Fuzzyhead,

    Fort starters the Jarrow is no longer any good unless it is the old Jarrow in a glass bottle. You liver enzymes are a result of something but not middle grade serum cobalamin level. I had high liver enzymes for years while sick and normal now with 40mg of ENZY sublingual a day. The Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion is the ONLY 5 star Mecbl I know of currently.I crashed all over again on Jarrow last year and am still not fully recovered from it.
  16. Uno

    Uno Senior Member

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    My liver enzymes are off the scale Fuzzyhead. My B12 and folate levels were high as well. I've come off the protocol for the time being. I'm seeing a PSC specialist in a few weeks so I'll see what that shows up. Am in too much pain to stomach too many supplements. Fredd is right though, serum levels don't necessarily tell the whole story. Overall am not feeling particularly well without the B12 but am waiting to ride out the liver stuff.

    I used the Now Foods Methylcobalamin and was fine with it.
  17. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    thanks xara, very good link there on B12 and MMA

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