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Methylation, B-12 and Heart Rhythms

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Kathevans, May 19, 2015.

  1. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    So, I wanted to do everything in a controlled, methodical way, but that ship has sailed.

    It was becoming clear a month or more ago that my major symptom of Oxalate dumping (chronic diarrheal) was possibly also what you call a paradoxical folate insufficiency, which is to say, not enough methyl B-12 to receive the methyl-folate I was taking.

    I was still trying to sort all this out when I found myself in the middle of it. Whoops.

    The Country Life Coenzyme B-Complex I was taking pulled a fast one on me sometime last year and switched out the Cyano-Cobalamin and Folic Acid (not that this was benefitting me, I now realize) for the active forms of both: 800 mcg Methyl-Folate and 500 mcg Methyl B-12. (All true, I've spoken to the company)

    I'd been taking this supplement for at least a decade and it was the last thing I suspected over the last year as some symptoms worsened--pain and muscle tightness--and my worst--atrial fibrillation--came and went...after a long, exhausting addition of low a dose beta blocker and supplemental magnesium, a small bit of iodine (225 mcg, I think, or whatever is the RDA), and a good probiotic.

    But then I kept visiting this sight and reading posts and trying to figure out this methylation stuff and how it might pertain to the mystery of my SNPs. It all felt overwhelming.

    I decided to get to that place @Freddd recommends of the low dose lower Bs and then move on to the @Sherpa recommendation for additional B-2 to iron out my Homozygous MAO. But I couldn't get to that because the withdrawal symptoms I had from going off the B-Complex have been a roller coaster ride of alternating depression, exhaustion, insomnia, muscular weakness and, worst of all, the slow re-entry of the heart stuff. PVCs at first, then the afib. All of these responded when I re-introduced the B-Complex--just one instead of the daily two--and I'd return to my usual, acceptable limping along for some days till that was too much and I'd go cold turkey till that stopped working and for a couple of weeks I threw in a single B-Complex once a week or so, each time with diminishing returns or increasing symptoms, until the final straw, anxiety within hours of taking the supp, followed by increasing diarrhea, and waking at night after an hour of sleep with atrial fibrillation.

    Oy.

    It was clear this wasn't working. Last Saturday I decided to bite the bullet--or in this case the methyl cobalamin--and took a jagged little piece of the pill (about 1/5) and stuck it up in my cheek. But only for a few minutes. Really. I took it out before it was half dissolved. After all, my husband who knows well my hyper-sensitivities joked that the best way to take it would be to put it on a nearby plate, wait a minute and push it away. So what might I have gotten from this approximate 200mcg dose? Maybe 100 mcg, or according to Freddd about 30mcg absorbed. At most. But more than I was getting from one-percent absorption of the Country Life's 500 mcg--even back when I was taking two pills a day.

    Well, the energy was pretty great. I went for a walk in the woods, cleaned house for two hours, ignoring my pain, took a nap for over an hour (unheard of on Folate), had a nice evening, went to bed and slept like a log for three hours, got up and ironed for a couple of hours (this middle of the night wakefulness is my pretty normal sleep disruption), went back to sleep for another two hours and woke up feeling very heavy and drugged, this time with the most disruptive atrial fibrillation I've ever had.

    I dutifully took 350 mg of potassium and the same of magnesium, but neither helped. My heart managed to convert on its own over two hours later in the Emergency Room of the local hospital.

    So, that was clearly too much B12, right? My husband thought the low B Complex (Nature Made) was where I ought to hang for a bit and I agreed. I had one night's respite--PVCs, but no afib, not too bad. Energy yesterday and off to sleep by 11.

    Then awake at 11:45 with a less wild afib...not so scary this time as I'd learned long ago that if I just sat up and drank bentonite clay water and did deep breathing, it would settle down. Not that I could actually lie down. It was a night of accommodating my heart (that sounds so sweet!)--sitting up, finding a suitably distracting book to read, finally falling asleep for an hour and a half or so wedged against a pile of pillows, before my heart woke me again. Just irregular bumps. After more bentonite clay I may be able to sleep for another two or three hours if I'm lucky. (Well, that didn't happen)

    But what now? It's pretty clear to me I need the B-12. I even googled some info about the relationship between afib and low B-12. But How much? I guess I need to go to @caledonia's "Start Low and Go Slow". Also I keep thinking that I may have been dehydrated the other night. I'd been adding more potassium over the last week or so (is it true that this isn't so much of an issue if I'm not currently taking the active folate?). And I recently read a thread about the autonomic nervous system and deep sleep and low blood pressure (my tendency) and heart irregularities. I was wondering if the B-12 put me into a deeper sleep and somehow with lowered bp that affected my heart.

    Or. Do I take a smaller amount of the Methyl-B12 before breakfast, then go back to the Country Life B-Complex, but at 1/2 of one pill, keeping the low Bs low and giving me 200 mcg of Methyl-folate. Would the two active forms help each other? The B 12 from the paradoxical Folate deficiency (and chronic diarrhea) and the Folate from that deep B12 heavy, deeper sleep?

    Well. So sorry for the length here. But I know many of you have far more experience than I, and possibly some thoughts that might help me with my Indecision...

    Thank you all.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  2. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi Kathevans,

    As the afib is very uncomfortable and possibly even life threatening, and you were doing well on the 2 Country Life B Complex pills, my suggestion would be to go back on those and get stable.

    Then I would suggest adding sublingual B12 in addition to that, using the information from my document Start Low and Go Slow. Proceed very cautiously, so you don't trigger off more afib.

    You'll likely need to increase at least potassium, if not magnesium, as those two work together and also affect heart rhythms. The ratio of those two are not necessarily 1:1, at least that's not what I'm taking. You'll have to work out what is best for you by trial and error. Your doc may actually be able to help you with that.

    There are also other electrolytes you might need - sodium and calcium. I've found that calcium can affect heart rhythm, but salt doesn't. But if you're craving salt or salty foods, definitely supplement - this is due to adrenal fatigue.

    Note that you're probably deficient in B12 due to the years taking the Country Life which had a lot more folate than B12 (functionally speaking). I had something similar happen to me from a multivitamin, and I ended up with a thing where I stop breathing during sleep, then wake up with my heart racing and pounding. (Either a central sleep apnea, or acid reflux.) B12 supplementation helps this.
     
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  3. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Thank you @caledonia: my thinking follows yours pretty closely, though because I'd become over-sensitized to the Country-Life, I began my supps with 1/16--if you can imagine--of the B-12, crushed, up in my cheek. Felt a bit of anxiety, probably because of my exhaustion, but it waned before I ate. With my meal I took 1/2 of the Country Life--200mcg of the Quatrefolic folate...so we'll see. I know it takes a bit longer to hit--I think--because it's via the gut. I've got all the electrolytes here, so I can grab them if need be. I suspect my body is starving for B12, given my snps and the duration of time I over-dosed myself with folate. B-12--thank heaven for the terrific insights here. I never would have come up with any of this. (And so encouraging that it has helped you)

    I'll post again after tonight.

    Once we tamp down some of these symptoms, we just don't want to revisit them...
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Kath. I don't have answers beyond what you and caledonia have, (I'll re-read after I'm a bit more awake). But I just wanted to give you a :hug:

    You wrote on your info page, "After having the 23andme genetic test this summer, I was like, “Oh, of course.” It helped me let go of the guilt. I’ve been thinking there was something wrong in my head. After all, the psychiatrist I saw for twenty-five years once said, “You have to ask yourself if you want to be sick.” I just finished 4 years of inner-child work and I have to say, my inner-children are quite happy. It’s my outer-adult that’s not a happy camper!":thumbsup::balanced::balloons:
     
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  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    You're welcome. Now that I see your SNPs, a couple of more things hit me - I have MTHFR C677T +/-, and also MTR and a bunch of MTRR SNPs just like you (the B12 Double Whammy).

    My mom also had ME and had heart palpitation issues similar to you. She eventually ended up on a beta blocker for life. As we get half of our genes from each parent, she may have had a similar pattern of SNPs.
     
  6. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Exactly. And I can see I’ve got a lot of those SNPs going on. What a miasma…

    Interestingly, when I look back over my notes from last year, in the spring I was having a lot of symptoms from sleep to anxiety to heart—most likely, I can see in hindsight, from the change in the Country Life formula. Yet by the fall, the heart issues, with a very low dose beta-blocker, had all but disappeared…even as my pain issues grew worse.

    My father had afib and had several TIAs prior to the massive stroke that killed him. He was on all sorts of drugs. I’m hoping that if I resolve/or even improve these methylation issues, I might be able to avoid the same fate.

    I’m still having some heart irregularities, but nothing like the one that brought me to the ER. So I’m going to hold my supps at yesterday’s levels for at least today. At the moment I’m thankful for little things.

    Tired but happy.
     
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Thoughts about Afib: I used to get really severe episodes that twice sent me to the ER. My cardio then gave me a calcium channel blocker that will stop them--diltiazem. But more interestingly, I did my own research and found that depleted taurine could be the cause and that high doses of taurine (plus L-arginine which I have not found necessary) would prevent Afib completely. Here is a study:
    Elimination of cardiac arrhythmias using oral taurine with l-arginine. I am taking 4,200 mgs of taurine in divided doses throughout the day and so far this has worked.

    Sushi


     
  8. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Thanks for this reminder @Sushi.

    The problem for me with many beta-blockers, or calcium channel blockers is that they destroy my sleep. This is true for Diltiazem (instantly), Dixogin (over time), Metoprolol (I think I was up for 43 hours on one 24 hour dose of this). Even Propanolol and Atenolol steal sleep for 4 hours from the time I take them. Bisoprolol and Nadolol work best as long as I take them in the a.m.

    I tried Taurine via Kavinace (which also has B6) back in 2009 and was awake with a busy mind and anxiety for much of the night, getting only 4 ½ hours of sleep. That was a while ago, of course. Since then I tried Magnesium Taurate at night for sleep and, silly me, didn’t write down the date and so can’t look up how that went. But given I tried it only once, I’m guessing not that well.

    My new alterna-doc has suggested the possibility of ‘taurine dumping’, though my level is 7.28 in a range of 5.00-8.50 on my December NutrEval test. That’s in the green, but the number is highish. Argenine is similar: 10.6 in a range of 7.0-13.5.

    It sounds as if you’re taking doses throughout the day, so I’m guessing there’s no effect on your sleep. I’m such a light-weight when it comes to supps maybe I ought to try the Taurine, but start out in the morning. That Abstract certainly looks convincing…

    Thanks.
     
  9. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    I don't know anything about AFIB...

    I don't "think" taking a fraction of a B12 pill should cause a major upheaval or mineral imbalances.
     
  10. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I take it throughout the day, but I take the largest dose at bedtime and, for me, it doesn't affect sleep. I have only taken diltiazem in the early morning as that is when I used to get Afib, so don't know how it would affect my sleep.

    Sushi
     
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  11. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    @Sherpa I think the major upheaval for me was stopping the Country Life B-Complex, which I’d spent nearly a year adjusting to with its addition of active Bs—800 mcg of Methyl Folate and 500 mcg of Dibencozide and Methylcobalamin. My heart irregularities—completely gone—reappeared within a week of stopping, then stopped as I took each tablet because of other symptoms and so on.

    I’ve started ½ of the Complex a day, which will keep the lower Bs low and hope my real needs will become clearer. First up, ramping up on my obvious need for active B12.
     
  12. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Update: No heart irregularities at all last night after my 2nd day back on ½ tab of the Country Life B-Complex; slow ramp-up of Methyl B-12 Sublingual.

    I suspect multiple reasons for the afib (including over-exercise the previous day), but this link made me feel very good about the prospects of methylation (Boldface in the quote is mine):

    http://www.afibbers.org/atrial_fibrillation.htm

    Fortunately, there are several alternative approaches that show promise in preventing LAF.

    Dr. Matthias Rath, MD, a leading American expert on cardiovascular disease, believes that arrhythmias are primarily caused by nutritional deficiencies and can be prevented by optimizing the intake of such nutrients as vitamin-C, l-carnitine, coenzyme Q10, magnesium and vitamin B complex(30). Magnesium is of particular importance as it is highly concentrated in the heart muscle and counteracts excessive calcium, which tends to excite the heart. L-carnitine has been found to have excellent antiarrhythmic properties and is also useful in the treatment of heart attack patients and patients with intermittent claudication(31- 33).


    Thanks all…
    (Hey, where are all those emoticons? I could use a happy face!)
     
  13. AndyPandy

    AndyPandy Making the most of it

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    :):):):):):):):):):)

    @Kathevans great that you are making some progress!

    Best wishes, Andy
     
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  14. Nalazoo

    Nalazoo

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    I know this is an older post, wanted to share in case this can help others.

    My friend recently started experiencing afib. I suspect she has MTHFR and other SNPs at play considering Graves Disease, other heart medications, and so on.

    Turns out, she's been drinking water from a reverse osmosis system that did not have a remineralizer or ph balancer on the output. She was depleting her electrolytes.

    If you're using any type of water filter that removes most or all of the total dissolved solids (TDS), then you really need to make sure you're replenishing your electrolytes.
     
  15. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    @Nalazoo Interesting. As for myself, I've been slowly working with methylation supplements and with all my MTR and MTRR snps have discovered a serious deficiency in B12. Both methyl and Adenosyl. They actually have resolved almost all of my heart irregularities. As I tried to get my MAO functioning with the aid of selenium, iodine and molybdenum, I stopped theB12 for a couple of weeks. Not only did I have terrible insomnia, but I began to have more irregular episodes as well AND on the first day I restarted the B12 at low dose of 250mcg, I had atrial fibrillation again and ended up in the emergency room.

    After going through this twice now, and titrating back up, I think the reaction is simply my deficiency, my heart saying, "What?! This is all you're going to give me?!" As I continued to add the B12, the symptom goes away completely.

    Along the way I also discovered I was very low in molybdenum and copper...And am still working on these...
     
  16. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

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    Your +/+ MTRR SNP isn't one which has much of an impact, and even the significant ones won't have an impact on that gene when +/-. If you do have a tested B12 deficiency, it's probably coming from somewhere else.
     
  17. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Actually, my deficiencies are not medically tested' (mainstream shows me with adequate levels; alternative, on the NutEval and Oat, show me as low/deficient). As such, I've done a lot of experimentation. My symptoms, sleep, pain and muscle related, respond positively to the B12, and especially Adenosyl B12. As I've said above, I also tested low in some of the cofactors that help the body utilize B2, or make it functional. I don't have a science background and have worked with Dr. Greg Russell-Jones, known hereabouts as the B12 Oils guy. His insights have proven invaluable.

    So I suspect you're right @Valentijn , that my 'deficiencies' initially came form not having enough iodine or molybdenum or copper. Since I've fiddled with them all, who knows exactly what I needed. Ultimately things are a lot better with my heart irregularities (Yay!) and much better in the energy/pain spectrum.

    It's largely a mystery, I have to say. I'm just grateful for a lessening of symptoms. And certainly still working. I just re-did the NutrEval test for the first time in a little over a year and we'll see...
     
  18. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    @Sushi

    Would you mind giving an update on your experience with taurine and atrial fibrillation?
     
  19. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I never had the courage to take the really high doses of Taurine and Arginine used in the study that I linked. At the dose I was using though I still had another episode of Afib and my EP convinced me to take a low dose of an antiarrythmic--which so far is working. I still take Taurine as support, though, and am very careful of my electrolytes.
     
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