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Methylation.... anyone experience anger or agitation?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by place, Apr 23, 2012.

  1. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Just an update, I have yet to have the rage issues come up. Only when on steroids. Honestly think things have kind of settled down, not sure how or why but they have.....
    Anteah likes this.
  2. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    I become extremely depressed being on the protocol now for 2,5 months, especially after taking all the supplements together daily. If I space them, the suicidal feelings fade away. I felt awesome physically after 6 weeks on the protocol even though there were quite some start-up problems. Then I probably became too confident, raised the dose to daily 5 + 1mg methyl (but no adenosine yet) as well as daily 800 mcg folate.
    The suicidal thoughts hit double hard especially after having s*x, horrible contrast. :zippit: Also very easily angry and agressive. Scary times, I always consider how I could overdose to die as quickly as possible and at the same time I know it is a temporary reaction. It always passes, accept it, be my best friend in these moments. However partner and children don't understand at all what is going on. Very difficult to explain too.

    My doctor did a blood test. Vit E was well above reference levels this time so I guess it's time to stop supplementing.
    B12 raised with 600 points in about 3 months time, just with tablets.
    Homocysteine was still slightly raised so still some work to do.
  3. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    I also experience the anger,aggression,over-stimulation,depression, wanting to overdose and die. It does pass,yes,but it is a horrible feeling to go through,that too almost everyday now. Family members do not understand, they offer their concern but instead I get angry. Hard to explain.I'm getting these out of control feelings after adding adb12 and acetyl l carnitine.The carnitine feels like a train crashing into my brain from all directions. I'm considering them as ATP startup. I have however felt the same feelings before at times when I took a lot of mb12(around 6 mg,same as yours) and sometimes with high folate, but then I took some niacin and felt some relief. This might be because of overmethylation, but I'm still not sure. Benzos also did work back then. A small amount of Valium was enough to show me that sanity still exists in life. I'm not even considering the B12 serum levels, just watching symptoms. But for other vitamins and minerals,yes, tests are important and levels should be kept in the reference range.

    Good luck. We both need it,I guess.
  4. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Marlene- I have ran into many road blocks. It's like you plug one hole and another one opens up that needs fixed. But right now I have been working with amino acids to fix stuff. I don't take them every day but several times a week and it seems to be working. Sometimes I rotate stuff like sleeping meds: gaba/triptophan/ melatonin. Recently I was having IC issues, like every friday and it would be gone by monday. But I discovered that taking copper once a weeks take care of this problem.... why? I have no idea but it does. Keep trying different stuff, you might find the link.
  5. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Arx- I remember Rich telling me that cystine might help with calming things down. Maybe that will help like the niacin?
  6. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Maybe. I'll check it out. Thanks.
  7. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Absolutely, these are the worst, they make me feel psychotic. They'll have to wait!

    NAC is in the treatment protocol for Chlamydia pneumonia which I have (cpnhelp.org). My doctor gave niacin for other reasons (suspicion of Lyme, high cholesterol, energy issues, ...) but I tolerate only low doses. Here's a good explanation why:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/metabolic-diet-supplements-an-exploration.18312/

    So true. How funny, I tried the same but I got the impression it made things worse even though I have severe copper deficiency. I still think it must be start-up issues. Trying to be positive :)
  8. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    I had to stop all supplements about two weeks ago. My stomach as well as liver started to hurt really bad. My condition was deteriorating as if I was poisoned.

    The pain under my right rib slowly faded away. Yesterday I tried just 1mg of methyl B12 again and wham, my mind is filled with dark thoughts all day long. Horrible! The pain in my chest is killing me.

    I feel like giving up. Will this nightmare ever stop?
  9. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    I have the same question. From what I have gathered, the path to healing goes through this nightmare. I am just trying to make the nightmare tolerable. If I have a hyper response to x mg of a supplement(mb12/adb12/folate/carnitine), I understand two things from it:
    1. The hyper response indicates extreme deficiency( as indicated by Freddd, following his understanding here,as a non deficient person does not have such a response)
    2. The next day, instead of stopping, I will try a fraction of that x mg and slowly build up to that x mg. It might take days,or weeks. (God give me patience!)
    I had an extremely hyper response to acetyl l carnitine. I took 1 capsule one day. I was nearly psychotic.Then I read about titrating things .I started from 1/15th of the ALCAR (Acetyl L Carnitine) capsule and now I titrated and built up the level to 3/4th of the capsule everyday. Of course this feels like madness too,but it is manageable.Just try to make this process tolerable. I've felt like giving up way too many times than feeling of going ahead with this.I've had way too many negative thoughts,impatience,flashbacks,emotional outbursts and a wide range of mental things. In a positive frame of mind, I try to take it as a challenge. As a fellow traveller, I try to go slow rather than consuming a higher dosage which will make me feel in a mental and physical hell. Then I will surely feel like giving up.
    Of course when the going gets too tough,I leave the supplements for a day or two, only to start back with a smaller dosage.
    Take a quarter or even a crumb of the methyl b12 and then see? Try to build up to the 1 mg level gradually in ten days or so, in a tolerable manner?

    Good luck to both you and me.
  10. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Thank you arx for your support. It went well after 2,5 months. The beginning was tough, just like you said. Gradually building up with crumbs but I got up till 5 mg of methyl B12. Now 1 mg makes me feel miserable again.

    I wish I could understand why one feels so depressed, nearly suicidal after just 1 mg of methyl B12. The picture of the methylation cycle is in front of me. Can anyone explain me what to take to prevent the dark thoughts and sick feeling. I understand influencing methylation has an indirect effect on serotonine and dopamine. Is this the reason? Or has it to do with detoxing? Is there any way to "prevent this side-effect"?
  11. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Hi Marlene,

    It may be necessary to also look at dysregulation involving nitric oxide synthase (Martin Pall's theory), rather than just a block in the methylation cycle (Rich's theory). Both of these theories to describe the chronically high levels of oxidative stress seen in ME/CFS are compatible with each other (Rich always felt that his was the "egg" and Martin's was the "chicken"). And using one or the other, or both, may be better for a person depending on their own individual genetics.

    So if the active forms of vitamin B12 and folate aren't working for you (i.e., a methylation protocol) it may be necessary to address low levels of tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4). This is the key cofactor for production of all the major neurotransmitters as well as regulating NOS. It can be addressed with:

    1) Direct supplementation of BH4, especially if a person has a true BH4 deficiency (larger amounts require a prescription, at least here in the States; there's a "BH4 loading" test, too, to check for deficiency). If a person is only mildly deficient it's critical to use only small amounts several times a day, since BH4 is an inhibitor of the very same enzyme that begins its synthesis;
    2) Extra zinc, which is used by the rate-limiting enzyme GTP cyclohydrolase I (GTPCH or GCH1) in the first step to produce BH4;
    3) Removal/neutralization of ammonia (due to dysregulation of NOS) with charcoal capsules (taken at night, hours away from any food, supplements or medications), and maybe yucca;
    4) Inhibition of NOS - this is tricky.
    (A fifth possibility is large amounts of L-methylfolate, but that might not be good depending on a person's tolerance.)

    If you haven't done genetic testing (with 23andMe, for example) then I think it's very difficult to try to figure out what's going on and how to balance everything (unless a metabolic panel shows a very specific problem), and you might be forever guessing.

    There's also this related thread in the genetics subforum:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...imiting-enzyme-for-bh4-relation-to-nos.19570/

    Good luck!

    Edit: Forgot to mention that if you've had your blood plasma levels of amino acids checked, a potential BH4 deficiency may exist if citrulline (and preferably arginine, too) is relatively elevated compared to methionine.
    Asklipia likes this.
  12. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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  13. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Ah, I didn't realize you have lupus. It seems that problems with nitric oxide/NOS are associated with that disease, so what I wrote might actually be just the right thing for you. So maybe you should assume you have low BH4 and high ammonia and try to treat those two problems primarily.
  14. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    For me the initial "maddness" was when I started MB12, it lasted a week and went away. Adding ADB12 was much harder. Every time I would take it even at small doses it felt as though my body beginning to make more glutathione and detox begins. I not only felt insane I also taste a metallic taste in my mouth suggesting it is picking up some heavy metals, mercury perhaps and making it flow freely in my body. Possibly redistributing it. Not quite shure it is even a good thing, but did push through a bit and up to 2mg of adb12 now (which I need for energy, or I am a listless bum) and am handling it pretty well. However, I feel as though i pushed it a bit too far and my liver got a bit too stressed trying to detox the metals out. About a month into the whole "push through it" ordeal my liver started hurting and my bile production slowed down, which is not a good thing, so I am not upping the dose and will just stick with current one. I want to detox, but not if it is about to backfire and wreck havoc in my body. I guess things like that have to be done at a certain rate. Live and learn i swear!

    Anyway, sorry for a long rambling post, I just got back from a long shift and a bit delirious. My main point was that I still very much think that "the reaction" we are experiencing is glutathione rush that begins moving heavy metals around, and it is that strong in some people and not in others because either we have been more deficient in the glutathione than others or we are much more toxic with metals. Logically probably both are correct.
  15. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    @ anteah

    so glad to read your post! I never made the link with the detox of heavy metals and the liver/bile production.
    My heavy metals were tested, none were elevated apart from aluminium but the mechanism makes sense.
  16. boo85

    boo85

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    Hi there. I am too taking methyl b12 (500mcg) every second day. In the past 2 weeks I've felt like I was going crazy. Thinking thoughts that healthy people should never think. High anxiety, panic attacks etc. I've been taking b12 on and off because of the high reaction I was having to it. One day my sense of smell was so strong - I could smell things that others couldn't. I also couldn't watch movies or TV with violence or anything too jarring because it was overwhelming for me.

    I've started supplementing potassium - eating lots of potassium rich foods every day, and that has somewhat helped with the physical symptoms and helped me sleep at night, and it's helped the weakness of the arms at night go away. But what can I do about the 'methyl madness'. Today I feel better, but I'm so scared about what the future might bring. I started B12 because of the physical symptoms - tingling of the arms and pains in the arms, hands and back. It was 2 months between when the physical symptoms turned up and when I first took some b12.

    I'm also quite low in iron - been supplementing ferritin and general iron for 6 - 8 weeks. My ferritin was tested at 10 before starting supplementation. I also take 2 x 100 mg of magnesium (one in the morning and one 2 hours before bed).

    I don't know whether to up my dose of b12 or what.

    I have a few servings of chicken liver in the fridge - will that give me adequate adenosylcobalamin?

    What does my reaction to mb12 mean?

    Do you think I'll have a chance to recover?
    Victronix likes this.
  17. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Hi boo85,

    Your rxn to mb12 would seem to mean that you need mb12.

    You should also know that the worst of the mb12 start-up effects typically take a couple of weeks for your body to adjust to.

    I think the one thing you can do about methyl madness is to take potassium, not just as food, but as a powder or tablets (I take NOW potassium gluconate). I was afraid to take it at first -- not *another* weird thing to take! And I got the crazy thoughts with methylfolate -- anxiety, feeling dissociated, panic, etc. But if I address the potassium needs, the madness literally does not happen at all. I thought I could do it with food potassium, also, but that didn't cut it.

    It's fine to take chicken liver, but don't consider it to really be a substitute.

    I would recommend starting with a very small amt of adenosyl, however small you want, and try working up from there. If its too much, make a smaller amount and try again.

    In the long run, you don't want to have to consume an animal's liver everyday, and if you have a B-12 deficiency -- that might be what it takes to address it if we didn't have supplements. On our old B-12 forum someone described their relatives having to eat a huge portion of boiled liver *every day* in a stew of some kind that the cook would have going *all day long* . . . Luckily today we have modern methods to get vitamins for those of us who would otherwise be crippled.

    There are other dietary reasons to have liver if you don't mind eating it, but you don't want to have to have that all the time in the year 2013 . . .

    You'll recover and the panic will subside. Get some potassium (I prefer the powder to tablets) and note that people on here are taking as much as 2000 - 3000 mcg per day. I'm taking about 1500 mcg or so. When you are deficient your life comes to a halt and you really suffer.

    When I first started taking mb12 in 2008 we didn't know about potassium, and the motto was to just hang on and grit your teeth and get through it. Today we have potassium . . .
  18. boo85

    boo85

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    Victronix,

    I live in Australia and I don't think they sell potassium here, like they do in the states. However, I do have electrolyte tablets that dissolve in water. Each tablet has about 150mg potassium per tablet if I remember correctly. I think I have about 1500 - 2000 mg potassium per day. My night time tingling has stopped since taking potassium (fingers crossed).

    I am going to try to eat chicken liver every day in addition to every thing else (including b12). Does the b12 from food get absorbed and used better than the b12 from tablets? And will I get much adenosyl from chicken or beef liver? It doesn't taste the best but in the short time I don't mind eating it every day just until I get some balance happening.

    4 days after starting sublingual b12s I had really crazy dreams, and felt like I was going to faint, then my heart starting beating really fast so I had to call an ambulance. I went to the ER but they don't know anything about b12, let alone the effect on potassium that it has. Thank God for the Internet...

    How do you know that I need b12? It is a good sign that I'm having these side effects? Is it the nerves/areas of the brain waking up again?

    Thank you.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    The anxiety, panic, fear anger, rage and severe depression appear to be tied into the more specifically AdoCbl/L-Carnitine effect in the limbic system. As MeCbl can be converted to a limited extent, it can cause some limbic startup. This startup appears to severely irritate the damaged areas in the limbic system causing the specific results or sequences of results a person many experience. It appears to also tie in to dopamine via ATP as demonstrated by the seemingly paradoxical response to benzos and other drugs after full accommodation is reached in people with the same. The effect of MeCbl is usually far more limited than AdoCbl. L-carnitine should be saved for last to start. It can be the most controlled accelerator. It can me micro titrated up from 100mcg using the Jarrow liquid freebase carnitine. There are some who have succeeded at the micro titration keeping the carnitine on the edge. It helps to take the daily dose as 1/3 of the total carnitine dose so there a relatively stable The CNS Carnitine startup can be largely over before the dose gets high enough for the body to get going for the muscles and exercise tolerance and all that.


    Check out "salt substitute" "No-salt" or "lo-salt" at the supermarket perhaps for potassium.
    Victronix likes this.
  20. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Hi,

    For myself, I was diagnosed with B-12 deficiency, so I knew that I needed it, but as a rule, if you have a strong response to (esp) small amounts of methyl B-12, it suggests you need it. In cases where people do not have a deficiency, the experience has been that they have little or no reaction to it. Fredd has done a lot of experimenting on people he meets or knows, giving them B-12 tablets and then seeing what happens, and has seen many people who have no reaction at all to mB-12 who are healthy.

    I also had to go to the ER, but it was for my thyroid, when it went similarly crazy to what it feels like with B-12 -- what a ridiculous stressful experience to go there! But sometimes you just don't know what's going on, so if you are taking care of yourself, it makes sense to just go to be on the safe side. Of course, they just tell you to stop or lower whatever it is you are taking.

    This is the thread I would recommend reading on what co-factors to take, etc.: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/active-b12-protocol-basics.10138/

    The absorption of B-12 from food will depend on the state of your gut -- there is only a small section of the intestines that is able to absorb B-12 and if it gets damaged, you are unable to absorb it easily from food. B-12 is also not the easiest thing to absorb in general because it is a relatively big and complex molecule (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12), so older people can develop deficiencies as they lose the ability to absorb nutrients as well.

    Taking a sublingual tablet bypasses any possible digestive issues.

    But I can understand the desire to try to get it naturally when the pill form is so startling at first. I think that's fine. Eventually things start to naturally balance out.

    Yes, isn't the internet amazing? I remember how incredibly grateful I was when I found the B-12 forum while the doctors were mostly ignorant. At any time of the day there was always someone who could help.

    There are a number of co-factors listed in the thread above that you can take, but if you are having a big reaction at this point, those can wait. You might add a few things you know won't bother you, Vit C, D, etc., but I would not recommend starting methylfolate or carnitine or others you are not familiar with until you get more comfortable with the B-12.

    Others on here will make other recommendations. I can only advise based on my own experience.

    I'd be interested to know what got you to decide to try B-12. And hang in there!

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