Methyl Trap and Over Methylation

[minkeygirl]

I've seen people reference these two things but I don't know what they are.

I'm wondering 1. what these are 2. how do you know you have it and 3. how to correct it.

Please answer dumbed down and simple. Talk to me like I'm in first grade. I don't understand this or any science. No matter how many times I read it, it doesn't stick.

I started Methylation again a few days ago. The first thing I'm noticing is that my heart palpitations (tachycardia?) which I felt all the time and took propranolol at night for are about 95% gone. I starting taking 1 Nuun daily so that might be the reason. It's awesome.

Thanks

 

[ahmo]

Over methylation: If your folate is higher than body can adjust to, you might feel palpitations, restlessness, breathlessness, histamine reactions. If you're on a path to increase your methylation by slowly increasing these supps, you'll probably run into this.

For the palpitations, potassium. For the possibly unpleasant speediness or other things I mentioned, there are 2 approaches. Ben Lynch suggests dampening everything down by taking B3. I, OTOH, always had good results by immediately taking a 1mg sublingual B12, an essential partner in methylation.

Methyl trap is temporary low folate. These symptoms will typically involve skin...acne, angular chelitis, others.

It's an ongoing delicate balance between B12 and folate.

sheclimber has created a new 9 page guide to methylation, linked in my signature. Pages 5 and 6 address your question. It's in a list/table format.

 

[minkeygirl]

@ahmo Thanks for explaining it so well. I think I get this part but I'll forget as soon as I read it LOL. As I increase my mfolate I am increasing my potassium intake so that should help right?

How would I get in a methyl trap? Too much MB12 and not enough methylfolate? It's so complicated.

I have another question. Freddd has LCF in his deadlock quartet but in another thread, I think Sherpa started it, he said something about methylation increases LCF? I can't find the thread and now I can't remember exactly what he said.

Something I'm doing is helping because my heart palpitations are sooo much better. Either this or Nuun.

 

[ahmo]

As I increase my mfolate I am increasing my potassium intake so that should help right?

YES! For me, low K+ is more like a heavy, thudding heartbeat, but also palpitations. Since you've already been having palpitations, you'll know what to watch out for.

How would I get in a methyl trap? Too much MB12 and not enough methylfolate? It's so complicated.

Yes. That's why there haven't been simple explanations. But you have the core message: balancing B12 and MethylFolate.

I'm posting the clearest, most concise explanation I can find. It may as well be Fred's words:

If one has insufficient MeCbl and insufficient Metafolin,(folate) then a person can be in the position to switching back and forth between methyltrap folate insufficiency symptoms and partial methylation block B12 deficiency symptoms.

So in methyltrap, a little MeCbl is taken and one comes out of methyltrap with folate deficiency symptoms and suddenly shows B12 deficiency symptoms with then fade back to methylation block symptoms of folate insufficiency and B12 deficiency. it all seems very paradoxical which is why it has confused so many people for so long.

Only a person working on it from the inside and succeeding is going to figure this out.. That is why ENOUGH of both MeCbl AND Metafolin both needs to be taken to unblock the double whammy of methylation block and methyltrap.

I know you have an MD involved, and don't know what your suggested protocol has been. In following Freddd's, there's an implicit understanding to gradually increase doses until your major symptoms have *resolved* But you will probably go through periods of discomfort.

Re LCF: As far as I know you have to add this in. I've not seen references to body being able to provide it on it's own. This one can produce anxiety, start low.

The 4th of Deadlock Quartet is AdenoB12.

I'm also giving you this expanded list of what might be low folate symptoms, beyond skin.

Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.

 

[minkeygirl]

Thanks @ahmo. Not sure how much stuff I can read of Freddd or sheclimber. I'll try when I'm on my computer. Got serious fog and cog issues

But I get the basics we've discussed. I'll bookmark this for reference. I'll see if I can find the thing about LCF.

I have dibencozide which I'm using instead if AD12 which I read was ok. I haven't added that yet because I have to find it in my graveyard of unused supplements

As for the list of issues from low folate, I have most of those all the time so it'll be hard to figure out what is what. lol.

I've been dealing with the heart palps for a while so to have relief (until I exert myself) is huge.

I do see an NP but i think she is overly cautious about methylation doses. She wanted me to stop at 1200 mcgs methyl folate even though I had zero relief.

Also we have a great partnership so I can take the reins in this and do what I need dosage wise. She will support me. I'm mostly In major discomfort so wth?

Thanks so much for your patience. Not "getting" stuff makes trying things a real challenge.

 

[minkeygirl]

@ahmo. Just read Freddds quote here and my brain shut off. I will never get that. I have the cognitive skills of a first grader. Very frustrating.

 

[minkeygirl]

@ahmo I just remembered it was NAC Freddd said not to take. I think he said it lowers LCF.

I've stopped taking it.

 

[ahmo]

I have dibencozide which I'm using instead if AD12 which

Dibencozide is AdB12.

As for the list of issues from low folate, I have most of those all the time so it'll be hard to figure out what is what.

Glad you were able to focus through that list. Just keep tuned for anything getting worse, or better.

we have a great partnership so I can take the reins in this and do what I need dosage wise. She will support me. I'm mostly In major discomfort so wth?

the essence of Fred's quote:

That is why ENOUGH of both MeCbl AND Metafolin both needs to be taken to unblock the double whammy of methylation block and methyltrap.

That is, maybe envisioning folate and Methyl B12 like a see-saw will help. As you increase one, be prepared to have some type of symptom that could be relieved by the other.

The AdB12 (Dibencozide) is separate in this relationship, does not have the direct relationship to folate. But it delivers (?) or helps create (?) the cellular energy, ATP.

I have a poor mind for science myself, but thankfully little fog these days. I can certainly appreciate your frustration.

 

[minkeygirl]

Seesaw is a great way for me to understand. Thanks.

I was reading a previous thread where someone said get stable on MB12 and Mfolate before adding LCF and AD12. Since AD12 is separate does that matter?

Even when my fog lifts occassionally, my neuro/cog stuff is still bad. I still can't get things to stick, ie all the symptoms of methyl trap or over methylation. And it takes me awhile to figure out what is causing what.

But the good news is last night I felt heart palpitations so I immediately took some potassium and within minutes it was gone. And in the mornings I notice it's gone after I start on my MB12. I'm down from 30 mgs propranolol to 10 and I'm only on that because I wanted to taper.

Update: So if I feel heart palps I can take potassium but isn't there a problem taking too much potassium?

 

[whodathunkit]

@minkeygirl, it's nice to see you're doing a bit better. Addressing the heart palps is a big step.

It is possible to take too much potassium. But 200mg or so at a time shouldn't cause you problems. I

f you are worried about taking too much, maybe when you take potassium take 200mg at a time, every 10-20 minutes, until your symptoms stop.

The time lapse between "doses" will allow your body to figure out if it's enough.

Good luck!

 

[minkeygirl]

Thanks @whodathunkit. I know I'm so happy to have that under control! Woohoo!!

I do know not take take more than 200 mgs at a time so I'm good with that. Taking some every 1/2 hour or so I did not know so thanks.

I just drank 1/2 Nuun tablet which has potassium. I'll see how that goes. I like to take the least amount to solve the problem.

After dealing with it for so long when I do have it its nothing.

Did I say Woohoo?

 

[ahmo]

Since AD12 is separate does that matter?

I honestly don't know. Try it in small amounts. So glad this is working for you. Once you're really up and running, expect more great things!

 

[minkeygirl]

I didn't have a problem with it or LCF before. I was taking 1/4 sublingual of the AD12. I'll add it tomorrow. I upped to 1600 mcgs Mfolate today.

Even if all I get for awhile is control over the palps that is huge for me. I will say after a good few hours this morning I'm pretty crashed. Probably the viral/infection component of my ME.

Quick question @ahmo about potassium. So I can keep taking 200 mgs (that seems to be the magic number) every hour or so as needed all day long?

 

[ahmo]

@minkeygirl Yes, you can keep it up. Just don't let it get out of hand with your sodium, magnesium needs. But mg tends to show up as cramps. Seems like just attending to your heart palps is a good way of monitoring.

 

[minkeygirl]

You lost me with the magnesium and sodium.

I guess if I get cramps drink some saltwater?

Maybe I can just mind meld you?

What's hard is when I look at the list you gave me of things that could happen, they are pretty much all symptoms I have anyway.

 

[ahmo]

Sorry minkey. Yes, take the potassium. 200mg at a go is not a large amount. If you find you're getting cramps, it could be low magnesium, as potassium and magnesium are another see-saw. Don't worry about the salt, just eat it as you wold normally. Again, your K+ (potassium) intake is still low. I'm using 1500-3000mg/day.

If any of your normal symptoms get better or worse...you'll know it.

 

[minkeygirl]

Got it. Thanks for you patience.

 

[minkeygirl]

Well this is interesting. To my MB12 I added AD12, LCF and 1 mg B6. have not had my usual mid morning crash which lasts most of the day.

And this was after a night when potassium did not help at all and I had to take some propranolol to I could try to sleep. I've had zero problems today with palpitations. And for some reason I'm in less pain, always good.

I just took another 1 mg B6 to experiment since my adrenals are shot. Woohoo.

 

[ahmo]

 

[minkeygirl]

Still got some major brain fog but that could be a completely different issue.