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Methyl folate insomnia

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by alice111, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. alice111

    alice111 Senior Member

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    hi guys,

    So I realized I had not been taking my methyl folate (brain fog... :bang-head:) turns out it DEFINITELY helps my energy! The downside though... while I wasn't taking it my sleep was pretty decent, and now I'm back to 5am nights!!

    Any ideas why?
    What I need to titrate or increase?
    I'm on a version of freddds

    Any advice appreciated! @ahmo
     
    Jennifer J likes this.
  2. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @alice111- are you staying on top of your potassium? Methylfolate can cause a rather sudden drop in potassium (due to increased need for potassium as cells divide more rapidly), and low potassium can cause insomnia (I've experienced this!)

    for more info on potassium and methylation see: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lation-important-info-re-low-potassium.49540/

    Also, are you taking B12 as well as methylfolate? Low B12 can also contribute to insomnia. http://www.livestrong.com/article/499896-does-vitamin-b12-deficiency-cause-insomnia/

    I would also look at the time of day you take it, that may be a factor - e.g., I needed B6 rather badly but found that when I took it at dinner, it caused insomnia, but I do fine with it taken at breakfast and lunch.
     
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  3. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    Assuming you have sufficient mB12 methylfolate will be converted to THF. THF is used to covert histidine to glutamate (instead of histamine). This can cause insomnia for some people. There are a number of things that can help with glutamate excitotoxicity:

    1. B6: Too much causes issues for some of us, but if you aren't taking any, it is involved in interconverting glutamate to other things.
    2. L-Carnitine: Increases glutamate affinity for metabotropic glutamate receptors. These receptors increase our appetite and generally pull glutamate out of circulation and back into storage.
    3. Vitamin K (MK-4): Gets calcium out of the system. Calcium is a second-messenger for NMDA receptors (the problematic type of glutamate receptor).
    4. Manganese: Necessary to convert glutamate to glutamine. Which seems to help some people. Unless you are one of the people that it gives horrible horrible insomnia to. MK-4 deficiency might be the deciding factor, but I am far from sure.
    5. Magnesium: Inhibits glutamate receptors.
    6. Boron or if you can't do that Molybdenum: Mo does and Boron seems to help with/be necessary for the activity of SUOX, which converts sulfites to sulfates. Sulfites combine with cystine to form a glutamate analog, so reducing sulfites numbers reduces glutamate excitotoxicity. On the other hand, this seems to be a case where the body adapts to having the glutamate analog around, so after a while Boron and Molybdenum no longer made me tired or helped with sleep--although they still help with sulfites, so I still take one of them. For myself taking both of them causes insomnia, so I would suggest you choose one.
    7. Lithium: Yasko claims (and seeing as this is purely a clinical insight, I might believe her) that higher doses of B12 depletes lithium in some people. I'm not sure exactly how Lithium helps, although I see speculation that it antagonizes NMDA receptors in a similar fashion to magnesium.
     
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  4. alice111

    alice111 Senior Member

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  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @alice111 When I was titrating up folate, I sometimes got very restless, hyper. Placing 1mg B12 under my lip worked for me every time, I'd go to sleep with it at times. Others use B3 to slow down the reaction, but I didn't use that approach. good luck. cheers.
     
    Mary likes this.
  6. alice111

    alice111 Senior Member

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    @ahmo what form of b12?
     
  7. alice111

    alice111 Senior Member

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    @Mary what form of b12??
     
  8. alice111

    alice111 Senior Member

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    @ahmo @aaron_c @Freddd
    How does Sam e play into this titration? It seems like the methyl folate and b12s balance each other out right? So what has to be balanced with same?

    Thanks so much for your help guys!
     
  9. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    I take methylcobalamin. I was using sublingual tablets and then found I did better with Blue Bonnet liquid methylcobalamin, 5000 mcg per dose, and I take 2 doses a day. It's a little pricey, but seems to be what I need.

    I don't know the chemistry but some people do better with hydroxocobalamin. I can't tell you why one works better for some people than the other.

    Some people swear by transdermal B12 - I believe it's methylcobalamin, which I haven't tried.
     
    alice111 likes this.
  10. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    SAMe (S-adenosyl Methionine) is produced from methionine. To produce methionine the body adds a methyl group to homocysteine, which it does in two ways:

    1. In most tissues the primary route is via methionine synthase (MS), which uses methylcobalamin and methylfolate.
    2. In the liver and kidneys the body also has betaine-homocysteine S-methyltransferase (BHMT) which uses a methylgroup from trimethylglycine (betaine) to convert homocysteine to methionine.

    I would say that methylcobalamin and methylfolate are probably all you need to balance if you want to get enough SAMe. Some people find they like taking trimethylglycine to help with this, while some people find it is too much. In any case you don't want to rely too heavily on BHMT in the long run, as methionine synthase's conversion of methylfolate to THF is crucial for the folate cycle.

    The situation with methylfolate and B12 is actually kind of a unique one resulting from the body's strict limits on folate concentrations in the cell and methylfolate's only being converted to anything else by methionine synthase. So I wouldn't look at every substance in the body and ask "what needs to be balanced for me to produce this?"
     
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  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @alice111 I can't take SAMe, don't tolerate sulfur. so I don't know.
     
  12. vortex

    vortex Senior Member

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    I have the same insomnia problem with methylfolate. I tried everything and found that taking p-5-p form of b-6 at night fixes the problem. The methylfolate stimulates neurotransmitters but if you have a b-6 deficiency it makes the tryptophan convert to excessive kynurenine instead of tryptophan.
     
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  13. vortex

    vortex Senior Member

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    I am getting insomnia from methylfolate and if I switch to folinic I sleep all day and night.
    I guess I need some balance or to just rotate back and forth every other day.
     
  14. Aerowallah

    Aerowallah

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    I got sudden insomnia a week after running out of folate sublingual (200 mcg) but continued 1000 mcg of B12 (mix of all three forms). Still getting 100 mcg folate from a multi capsule and salads but not sure how much is absorbed.

    Can dropping folate while taking B12 cause insomnia??? Or are there excitotoxic issues with B12?
     
  15. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    It certainly does for me.
     
  16. Alvin2

    Alvin2 Senior Member

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    I have no idea what freddds is but perhaps taking a lower dose with breakfast might help?
    B12 will keep me awake if taken with dinner or later so i take with breakfast and if i forgot i skip it that day
     
  17. Aerowallah

    Aerowallah

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    Wow, then that's what happened to me, all else remaining the same. On the "B12 Insomnia" thread someone mentioned he finds B12 energising and folate calming and balances the two for optimal sleep.
     

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