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Methyl donors - SAMe, TMG + any others ie DMG

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by topaz, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    That sounds plausible. Do remember that the NAC will effectively shunt glutmate into making glutathione. The acetyl group I believe will allow it to be BBB at some level. So there may be a balancing act there.

    Trust me I know what high glutamate can do and it is vicious, but it often doesn't go awry by itself. I think NE is often involved in many cases of excititoxicity, etc. That is the central thesis of my doctor and he has certainly helped me.

    P.S. Just leave the magnesium glyicinate till bed time or really late in the day, when you don't need the cognition.
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    dbkita
    adreno

    Damn, you guys are killing this thread. I've been taking 1000mg magnesium for the past few years although the main reason was because I had chronic constipation. Until recently though I mostly just took magnesium oxide mainly because it was the cheapest, but also my dad's doctor who my dad says helped him with MCS recommended magnesium oxide for some reason (and calcium carbonate:eek:). Recently I've been taking a combination of glycinate, citrate, and ConcenTrace (I'm not sure what kind is in it, but I was wondering if it was magnesium chloride).

    I have a few questions about magnesium. Is it absorbed better on an empty stomach? I've read that minerals are absorbed better on an empty stomach (not sure if it's true though and also if it's only chelated minerals are absorbed better that way). ZMA says to take magnesium on an empty stomach and also not with calcium. Is it better to take magnesium and calcium at separate times? Also, if a supplement in capsule or tablet form has both calcium and magnesium in it does that change their properties? (another weird rule from my dad's doctor).
     
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been following your discussion on Biotin and Manganese (Mn) and it raises some questions. I've eliminated at 85% of my supplements in attempts to find out what's causing my overstimulation. Today and yesterday I experienced it after having my protein shake. Both days I took 400-800 mcg Biotin, 3mg Manganese, 400 mg mangesium, and carnitine. Yesterday I also took 2000 mg Malic acid and today I took 3000 mg of Creatine AKG instead of the malic acid. On both days I also took a B125 timed release tablet about 2 hours earlier which included another 125 mcg Biotin. For someone sensitive like myself could the combination of those cause overstimulation? The overstimulation was physical, but whatever caused that also completely wrecked my mood which is why I was considering Progesterone from the Evening Primrose Oil and Borage Seed Oil which I had taken earlier in the day. However, my mood was pretty good up until after I took the other stuff I mentioned so I'm not sure about the Progesterone although maybe it did affect my cortisol.
     
  4. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    First are you really sure your overstimulation is due to your supplements? You are eliminating supplements on the basis
    that they you are sensitive to them. But like you said you have removed most and still are overstimulated.

    I had massive overstimulation for years and I never took any supplements ... not one.
    In my case it was large amounts of norepinephrine, low dopamine and serotonin, high reverse T3, yada, yada, yada.

    I have never heard of biotin causing overstimulation. I would think twice about sensitivity to biotin.

    Mangesium helps with energy sure, but it is about relaxation not overstimulation. It deactivated the NMDA receptors. Being sensitive to magnesium would be highly unlikely.

    But ...

    a) I would not take the oils for a few days, for people in a catabolic state they can lead to much lipid peroxidation ... that may not be good for you even if has nothing to do with the stimulation

    b) B-vitamins can always be stimulating; what exactly is in them? Can you link the amounts of each B-vitamin? If they are as I suspect 125 units across the board then yeah that can be a problem. For a long time my body freaked on pantothenic acid (energy but insomnia galore) now I am up to 50 mg woot. 125 mg of B6 is a LOT imo and almost impossible to justify. B2 and B3 are stimulating but B2 is usually cap absorbed at 30 - 40 mg in one dose, then again you are taking a time release so you are probably absorbing considerably more. Is the B3 niacin or niacinamide? B1 also provides energy. This is why I never take a B-complex. If you want my opinion, split them all out and decide carefully what proportions work for you ... but again I don't necessarily buy that this has anything to do with sensitivity.

    c) That is a lot of malic acid to take. Fine but be aware that will lead to a lot of oxacetalate in the Krebs cycle which is the equivalent of speeding up oxidation big time. On top of that some of your B-vitamins speed up metabolic oxidation, meaning dependent on your diet, sugar and starch may be kicking your metabolism all around the block. Just a thought.

    d) How much carnitine? The reason I ask is carnitine can be a HUGE difference maker in energy and stimulation. Too much (depending on type) can elevate your cardiovascular parameters and mean no sleep.

    e) Do you take creatine regularly? Some people overdo it. There is a maximum saturation dose per body weight. I can't remember the formula. I take creatine pyruvate ~ 3.0 grams per day (1.8 g creatine and 1.2 g pyruvate). I used to take double that dose and I got overloaded with energy at times. That being said I went back to 3 g and separately supplement an additional 2.4 grams of pyrvuate via 3 g of calcium pyruvate. The point is too high creatine for body weight is a problem for some. I believe for my body weight (~70 or so kg) the saturation dose is like 2-2.4 g creatine. Anything more than that is too much and you get only the negative side effects of creatine. Probably not the main factor in your overstimulation but for example too much creatine and not enough fluids = dehydration which will definitely stimulate you in a bad way. Remember creatine is hygroscopic.

    f) Not sure about manganese. I have read it can increase glutamate levels relative GABA in animal neurons but then again it is a cofactor for making glutamine. So not sure. Unless you are already toxic (take a hair test for manganese to check) 3 mg is a small amount. I can't see that otherwise being a big deal.

    If you want my honest opinion think out of the box for a bit (might not be right but might be worth a shot still) and think less in terms of sensitivity and more in terms of what are my symptoms (stimulation is too generic, are there for example CV symptoms, etc?), am I taking too much of something, am I overworking something (energy pathway, neurotransmitters, etc.)?

    The borage oil and primrose oil are not essential imho on the time scale of a few days. Then test hypotheses one by one on the remainder. I would really take a long hard look at the carnitine, the B - vitamin amounts, and pick either the malic acid or creatine AKG at first dependent on which you like better. Then experiment some.

    Good luck and God Bless!
     
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  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Thanks. I always appreciate your detailed answers. I was thinking it was the combination of everything because the supplements I mentioned didn't seem to cause me problems in the past. Yeah, I am concerned about the dehydration with Creatine which is why I'm taking a low dose. It seems like taking Creatine could hinder detoxification since it pulls water into the tissues when it really needs to be eliminated. The main reason I'm taking Creatine is that I wanted something with AKG and that seemed to be the cheapest thing available. My creatinine is low so hopefully it will help with that too. Since I stopped the oils my overstimulation has decreased so that could be part of it. With the malic acid it was from magnesium malate so I wasn't thinking too much about the malic acid content. The carnitine was a low dose, but I mentioned it since it might have had some synergy with the other things I took. The cortisol aspect is something I've been looking hard at. For the past 2 years I assumed my stress responses were due to high cortisol so I've been taking holy basil, relora, and/or phosphatidylserine to lower my cortisol. After finding out that my symptoms could also be caused by low cortisol and high norepinephrine I stopped taking those supplements about 4 days ago. At the same time I was taking around 15 g of evening primrose oil and borage seed oil because they raise progesterone which is supposed to be an nmda blocker and also for inflammation due to their high GLA content. I didn't even realize that they'd raise cortisol. So now I'm not taking anything that can raise or lower cortisol. I'm not sure if NMDA is a problem for me or not since my overstimulation tends to be physical rather than mental. I was examining the nmda aspect since I don't respond to supplements that raise GABA. Something is going on with my mood though. Even though I've been having a lot of health problems for the past 4 months my mood has been pretty good. However, the last 4-5 days I've been pretty depressed. I was considering the possibility that the progesterone was causing problems, but stopping the oils didn't make a difference. I did start a new bottle of Prozac recently. Although the new bottle was made by the same generic brand I was thinking maybe it was a different batch than the past. Unlikely, but I can't rule that out unless I switch antidepressants. I believe that Prozac is partially responsible for my overstimulation which is why I'm considering that since my overstimulation has decreased as my depression has increased. Another possibility is that Zyprexa I've been taking for the past 3 weeks is somehow blocking the action of my antidepressant. I've been on Zyprexa before and I feel similar to when I was on it in the past. The last possibility is some sort of die-off/herx from some of the anti-viral supplements I've been taking. When I've taken Pau D'Arco which is used for Candida and Lyme I've felt depressed. I also started probiotics and prebiotics a few days ago. Since probiotics kill the bad bacteria that could also cause die-off/herx reactions. I'm going to give it a couple days before I start eliminating some of the things I mentioned. It's really annoying how just when I seem to have gotten my overstimulation problem taken care of something new pops up.
     
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Taking creatine has little to do with creatinine unless you take huge amounts like a weightlifter then the creatinine goes way up and the kidneys are in trouble. Even when I was at comparatively high doses and at max saturation for my body weight, my creatinine is low normal.

    At this point if I were you I would dump the herbs and the oils until you get a better handle on what exactly is the problem. I.e. is cortisol high or low (24 hour saliva panel after being off the herbs / oils for a couple of weeks), is my norepinephrine high or low (probably based on your symptoms but only you can answer if you have cardiovascular symptoms a big tell-tale sign), is my acetylcholine high or low, do I have a lot of pain that gets better when I take magnesium (good sign that NMDA is involved) and so forth (seems less likely since you claim your stimulation is physical not mental).

    Remember if norepinephrine has broken loose (low or dysfunctional cortisol) or about to break loose (high cortisol trying to rein it in) either is going to produce physical stimulation and then egg on the immune system. The ultimate effect is the reduction of not only cortisol but also other hormones like progesterone.

    If you ever go back to any of those oils (15 g is a big dose, no?) then take them ONLY in the morning.

    If direct GABA supplements don't help much then you DO NOT have a leaky BBB which is great (trust me the opposite is very, very bad). If indirect supplements are not doing it for you (higher P5P (not B6), lithium, maybe theanine, etc) then glutamate NMDA is not your problem. By definition NMDA activity will be crushed by increased GABA activity. Period. You seem to imply that the two are somehow distinct. They are not.

    Let me ask you a question. Is your biggest complaint when you are "stimulated" that you are in fight or flight mode, irritated emotionally, heart revved up, lot of physical energy but tired underneath? Or is it that you can hear a flea pass gas on the back of a semi truck passing down a highway six miles away, every sound even that of your own blood vessels , even the feel of anything on your skin means you can't sleep, you can't close your eyes, your brain is moving at the speed of light and you can't get off the train?

    If it is the former, that is almost certainly norepinephrine. If it is the latter that would be glutamate.

    Excess acetylcholine means different things but is less likely imo.

    Personally I think Herxheimer reactions get used as explanations far too often when we don't understand something. They do certainly happen but I would always reserve judgment until other things are exhausted.

    Again if you REALLY have Lyme's (as verified by MANY bands on a Western blot / IgeneX, not some cryptic two bands that everyone has) then you have to get a doctor who will handle that. However, while imo the CDC way underestimates Lyme's cases, the LLMD community overestimates Lyme's cases. So be REALLY, REALLY careful here. But if again it really is Lyme's and its coinfections, then if you don't address that the rest of what you are doing is just band-aids ... sorry. BUT if it really is Lyme's you should have pretty significant neurological symptoms. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That is only something that you and a doctor's examination can answer.

    In your state you should absolutely be on high quality probiotics. Immune health starts in the gut. Period. I am not so sure about prebiotics. Pau d'Arco messes with a lot of people regardless of Lyme's.

    If you really have Candida don't mess around, crush it with diflucan and Nystatin, survive the Herx reactions for 8 weeks and then do maintenance with some sort of natural supplement (there are many). Toying with other solutions is a waste of time. I went through so much crud trying different natural protocols with Candida, blah, blah. There is a reason the medications I listed exist contrary to what naturopaths will rage against. Sorry. Note also take niacinamide and molybdenum as well. Niacinamide actually prevents Candida from mutating to develop diflucan resistance and molybdenum helps with the die off by processing acetaldehyde.

    Seriously lose ALL the herbs until you have a working baseline. Herbs are so bloody complex on how they affect the body because they ALL act on tens or even hundreds of receptors!

    Sorry I can't make any recommendations at all about medications like Prozac. I am not an MD and discontinuing or tinkering with that stuff can be devastating.

    I think your overstimulation personally is your new baseline. And I am betting it is norepinephrine. The question is why ...

    Good luck!
     
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  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    My parents have been taking 750 mcg adb12 a day and no other b12 except a low oral dose of cyano in their multi and b complex. Is that a problem? I bought them alpha lipoic acid, but then I found out alpha lipoic acid could make an existing b12 deficiency worse. I don't know if they have one or not, but I didn't want to take any chances so I bought them the b12. I think they both have anemia, but that could be low iron. At least that's what their doctor told them. They're taking 300 mg of alpha lipoic acid and 350 mcg biotin. Is that enough to prevent a biotin deficiency which alpha lipoic acid can cause? I thought I'd ask since you guys were talking about that earlier.
     
  8. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    This is a great thread!

    I have lots of questions.. but I'll start with this one.

    Can you think of a reason why supplemental magnesium might affect me in a strong paradoxical way? 200mg Mg before bed = wired but tired insomnia. I might as well pop MSG pills.
     
  9. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    There's a lot of magnesium info here -- http://www.krispin.com/magnes.html

    I don't know the reason but apparently it's not unusual for some people to have trouble sleeping with magnesium. She says, "Try to keep all doses at not more than 300-400 mg. each. 100-200 mg at a time work more efficiently. Some clients have experienced sleep difficulties when taking magnesium late in the day as magnesium can contribute to energy. If this happens to you confine your supplementation to earlier hours. . . . Do not take your last dose of magnesium later than 5 PM IF it seems to be too energizing and interferes with sleep."
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Hjhuez,

    Well, magnesium is an essential substrate for B12 reactions. If a person is low on magnesium it can PREVENT their methylation startup. It is one of those 1% to 2% critical cofactors. The energized is good. You body will reset and adjust to this in a while. Your sleeping will correct. You may have to learn to sleep with a more funtional nervous system. By the time it fades you will miss it. It is the begimning of healing. If you turn away from this CLUE you won't find the answers. Now the rest of the peices like ATP needs to be turned on, slwoly but it can also be intense during startup. You can titrate the magnesium to decrese the effect. Moving it to morning might help too. If you stop it then you are without a clue towards healing to follow up on.
     
  11. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The only thing I can think of is you are severely depleted in magnesium. Freddd mentioned the B12 reactions but also Mg is essential to the Krebs cycle itself. So if you are low and then supplement a lot of things can take off. I get 1400+ mg of magnesium a day in food and supplements. I take magnesium glycinate at bed time to help me sleep.
     
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Is that possible with other mineral deficiencies too? Someone was saying they had a very strong reaction to zinc and her tests showed her to have very low zinc levels. Since her copper levels were very high she thought it was the zinc displacing the excess copper. However, there is some evidence that zinc might not be as much a copper antagonist as others have suggested so I was thinking maybe the reaction was because she was deficient or at least a combination of both phenomena.
     
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yep.
     
  14. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Nevermind, I did some reading this weekend and discovered that my Mg supplement (Magnesium aspartate) is absolutely the wrong one for me, as aspartic acid stimulates NMDA receptors. This is a great indication of just how screwed up my BBB is and how sensitive my NMDA receptors are. /sigh
     
  15. Leon

    Leon

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    Thanks for this thread. I know it's old, but I've found it really useful!

    A few quick queries:

    Have you altered your adrenal support? I notice you take DHEA and pregnenolone, but no ACE or HC, for instance. Any reason?

    I also wondered what your thinking was with the turmeric. Presumably, you're Th2 dominant already?

    And potassium citrate: is your preference over gluconate or simply the one you picked?

    Thanks -
    Leon
     
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I am on 100mg preg and 25mg DHEA ATM. I've had a bad reaction to HC in the past, so I avoid it. Don't know what ACE is.

    Turmeric has many benefits, but it is not making a magical difference. I am trying a period without it. I don't know if I'm TH-2 dominant - I think the theory about TH1/TH2 dominance is oversimplified.

    I like K citrate. Gluconate gives me the runs, if you must know.
     
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno. Here's an article re TH1/2 dominance I found interesting. Like you, the author says standard thinking is too simplified. After reading it I added thymus glandular to my supps, hoping to make a "neutral" intervention to the system. Not sure how it's going, but I self-test positive for it. Best wishes for the New Year, ahmo
    http://wellnessalternatives-stl.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/am-i-th1-or-th2.html
     
  18. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12946237
     

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