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Methyl donors - SAMe, TMG + any others ie DMG

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by topaz, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    2mg sublingual mb12. And from my B complex, 200mcg mb12 and adb12 each. I was reading somewhere how it is easy to unbalance the two, as adb12 get stored in the liver for long periods, while mb12 has a very short half life (around 5mins).
    Lotus97 likes this.
  2. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Doesn't the adb12 and mb12 in the B-complex get disassociated easily when taken orally?
    Do you take both sublingual mb12 at same time in morning or some other schedule?

    Lastly in what form do you take in your vitamin C? You shoot for 4-8 grams per day right?
    Do you find the chelated forms (mg, K, Na) ascorbate as effective as ascorbic acid?
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    adreno:

    Oh also do you keep your methyfolate away from your intake of vitamin C? If ascorbic acid it will drastically reduce absorption within a 20-25 minute window or so. Learned that one the hard way. Might not be the same effect with chelated forms of vitamin C. I know vitamin C also destabilizes any oral mb12 in the gut if in there at the same time.
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Before my ordeal started, back when I was still in SE asia, I did have a huge gut problem. It started from one day to the other, with severe pain, appetite loss and diarrhea. I was tested several times, no bugs were found, and they diagnosed IBS. I say, lose the "I" and just call it BS. No doubt there was some infection. It took 2-3 months to get over it. Around the time I was starting to feel better, I took those supps I described earlier. So it is possible that some immune (gut) problem precipitated this.

    I do not now have any obvious gut symptoms. I have no pain, no constipation or diarrhea, and regular movements. The consistency does change from day to day, but I can usually ascribe this to changes in electrolytes or neurotransmitters. Still, I have taking several courses of bug killers over the years (not antibiotics) though, and maybe they have helped. As it is, zinc carnosine also helps with h pylori and leaky gut. In fact, I started it on suspicion of leaky gut. I also take NAG. I think I am going to do the Metametrix GI profile and see if anything turns up nonetheless.

    Right, and that is the reason I got on the SSRI. They have been shown ns several studies to (at least partially) restore the HPA. I am only on half the recommended dose, though. I have found myself to be very sensitive towards SSRIs, and the few times I tried to increase beyond half the dose, I didn't succeed. I am trying again now. We will see how it goes this time. Fluoxetine has a half life of 1 week, so I usually feel fine in the beginning when I increase the dose, but later it builds up too much.
  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I wasn't doing this before, but now I take my B complex and mb12 in the morning on an empty stomach. I take the C with breakfast 30-60 mins later. I could definitely tell the difference! Thanks for alluding me to this.
    Hanna likes this.
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Probably a good idea to do a checkup on the gut. Things change over time anyways. I have eternally tested negative for H Pylori yet have reflux. It may not be your core reason but it may be a factor you don't need.

    Maybe split the objective dose, i.e. go to 50% increase and not 100% and let it build out over a week. I find it dangerous to manipulate meds with long half lives unless titrated slowly.
  7. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yep I learned this the hard way. If you see my other post above what form of vitamin C do you take? How does it compare to ascorbic acid? How much do you take?
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    That's what I have been doing, going from 10mg to 15. Of course, I could try 12.5mg. It's just a hassle quartering all those tablets...
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Natrium ascorbate 3 x 1g. I have found anything in the range between 3-8g to be good though. Ascorbic acid is too acidic for me in higher doses, but I'm probably fine with 3-4g. I use C powder, and I don't want to erode my teetch with all that acid though. Besides natrium is good for me, right :)
  10. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Ah my bad, I only now realized I missed you're earlier response.

    I assume by natrium you mean sodium. And yes it is good for you though sea salt is better (sea salt is ironically anti-inflammatory but still gives you the sodium you need). My brother claims the himalayan salt works better for him but I have never tried it.
  11. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Sorry, yes I mean sodium. Natrium is my local language. I was just going back to edit my post, but you are too quick on the keyboard :p
    I mainly bought the sodium ascorbate because I wanted to try bowel tolerance doses. At 3-4g I might as well take ascorbic acid.

    I was looking at himalayan salt in the shop yesterday. But I didn't know the sodium content, so I passed. But as I understand it, it is a form of sea salt also.
  12. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I only recognized the word "natrium" because I took 4 years of Latin back in the the day :)

    According to the late Dr. Robert Cathcart I think sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid were his preferred choices. He wasn't a big fan of other ascorbates since apparently the argument is they stayed longer in the GI tract and degraded.

    I think the pKa of Na-ascorbate is such that a high amount of it is absorbed into the bloodstream (like 95% I think). Whereas I read a chilling article a while back that is making me rethink ascorbic acid since apparently larger fraction of it than I expected does not make the bloodstream but goes right on hitting the gut.

    So my trick burying it in food may not be as effective as I thought. When I try sodium ascorbate I may have to adjust the dosages a wee bit.
  13. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I took Latin classes also. But I didn't learn anything :p

    As a biochemist, you likely know Na (natrium) and K (kalium), right? We still use the latin here, guess we are old fashioned...
  14. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Correction ... theoretical astrophysicist who has somehow 'accidentally' ended up in Silicon Valley in biochemisty and genomics for the last nearly 20 years ... sigh has it really been that long?

    I loved Latin (was more fun than other languages) just has no practical use except for helping with vocabulary.

    On another topic I just checked another source and supposedly ascorbic acid taken without food is only 25% or so bioavailable to the blood stream. Increases when taken with food by slowing the transit time of ascorbic acid through the stomach where it needs to be absorbed.

    Apparently the chelated versions are the ones formed in the liver of animals. Our own guts see pure ascorbic acid as a bit of an intruder when past the stomach and attempt to buffer it by adding Ca, K, Na of our own and these salts just migrate down the colon where they are flushed with water, ergo diarrhea.

    If taking 8 grams of ascorbic acid a day, that could be a lot of Ca, K, Na used by my own body ... ick.

    Sigh always learning...
  15. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Ok, I didn't know that. I thought it was the other way around; that ascorbates are broken down in the gut into minerals and ascorbic acid before being absorbed. I will be careful with ascorbic acid from now on.

    Theoretical astrophysics is pretty hard core stuff. You must have a soaring IQ :) I'm in social sciences, a little less demanding...
  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yeah I was surprised by that as well. Turns out Na-ascorbate has like a 12-14 hour half life in the bloodstream. But if you think about it, it makes sense since the body attempts to buffer whatever it can in the GI tract. In this case by making mineral salts.

    This also explains why Dr Cathcart always gave sodium ascorbate in IVs. Imagine how the bloodstream would react to large huge amounts of unadulterated ascorbic acid, it needs to buffer it quickly or the pH shifts.

    Lol the longer I live the less convinced I am of what IQ really means let alone how it correlates to occupation.
    I am a firm believer the key thing is to always enjoy learning. Good for the brain! Now if I could just get the body to work!
  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    My brain is a big problem for me, lol. I am simply either to tired, or to wired, to focus on reading. Right now for example, I feel less than awake. I can get through an abstract, but rarely the whole article. Most things I just skim or read summaries. When things get very complex, it is simply too much effort to keep juggling the concepts. I am really interested in learning, but my mind keeps wandering off into other thoughts, or simply some kind of stupor where nothing is going on...I used to be more effective than this (though never terribly), but the last 4 years my mind has been like mush. I do well on raw IQ tests like Raven's Progressive Matrices, but badly on working memory tests. Long term memory don't seem that bad though.
  18. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Ironically glutamate is key for memory but too much can cause focusing and language issues.

    But the classic wired but can't focus culprit is norepinephrine when chronic. Short burst sure. Long term uh uh.

    Serotonin, gaba, and dopamine all promote focus though too much of any of them cause other problems.

    Brain inflammation = lethargy of the brain (excessive GABA does to but of a different type).

    Think about if norepinephrine without inflammation = mania.
    Excessive inflammation = sleep, unless there is enough norepinephrine to wire you up.
    Bouncing between the two would not be unrealistic.

    In 2009 in the throes of my not yet diagnosed SPS, I was held on the precipice of total collapsing fatigue but could not sleep and was in a constant fight or flight state. Was not fun for my family.

    Anyways, enough for tonight. Bedtime.
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    dbkita

    I am starting to come round to the idea that NE is the main culprit for me, not glutamate. Besides the bad reaction to glycine, the extreme cognitive deficits, there are also other pointers. I have found that low glutamate, combined with high NE can push me into hypomania. This happened when I was on an NRI and took coffee and taurine at the same time. It also happened on Mirtazapine. Memantine gave me extreme brain fog at 5mg and made me feel dissociated. I would wake up in a panic, with a feeling I was "falling out of this world", it's hard to describe but felt extremely scary.

    It would also explain my psychotic episode with the "Memory Support" which contains vincopetine. Vincopetine blocks glutamate release. I have tried it since in small doses and it seems to make me hypomanic at 2.5mg. 10mg for 2 days might have pushed me over the edge, perhaps combined with the 5-HTP. As you probably know, hypoglutaminergic states are suspected in schizophrenia and psychosis. I do suspect I am bipolar. My mother was too. Just trying to put 2 and 2 together here.
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    dbkita

    I remember you said somewhere that tachycardia is not a symptom of high glutamate, but I found this:
    https://scholarworks.iupui.edu/handle/1805/2107

    So it seems glutamate has a direct effect on the hypothalamus. I don't need an increase in heart rate, but I certainly don't want ACTH, temperature or blood pressure lower.
    Lotus97 likes this.

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