Methyl donors - SAMe, TMG + any others ie DMG

Hi

I am taking SAMe and TMG as co factors.

Are there any other methyl donors that we should be including as I have read in several places that DMG is a methyl donor too. Should we consider taking this?


I am not taking glutathione or NAC, per instructions.

Thanks

Hi Topaz,

Would you describe what kinds of effects you had from starting Mb12, Metafloin, adb12, SAM-e and TMG. DMG is a very weak methyl donor compared to TMG or Choline (TMG with another methyl group, 4 in all).

What brands of mb12 are you taking, how much and what technique and duration?

Thanks Freddd

All supplements have been listed at post #23 at http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?16127-Why-arenDeplin/page3.

I am not taking choline. Should I be?

Hi Topaz,

THAT IS NOT MY LIST. Part of it swas copied. The rest of it came from presumably thge person posting it and hasd things I would never suggest, brands I 'm not suggesting are better, all sorts of stuff. Go to the BASICS thead and find it there.

Also, I mention the critical cofgactirs as thibgs that should be tried after all the basics are in place and we know what is going on and can do it in a targeted way.

Freddd

I think we have crossed wires. You asked me in two posts in response to my questions and problems to list what I am taking and the link referred to above above (post #23 http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?16127-Why-arenDeplin/page3) is what I am currently taking.

It is all the supplements comprising your Active protocol. I only use your brands where specified and made my own choice when brand is not specified.

The "other " supplements are those prescribed by my practitioner and I listed them n response to your query for a list of my supplements so you could help me. I separated them from the list of your protocol basics.

Thanks

I sorry. Somebody else was asking what I suggested and questioned me about why certains things were on there. That was all I meant. I had no idea why some of the items are there and the ones that were lacked my included explanations. You were posting it of course in answer to my question, thaankyou. Again, sorry I didn't explain it better.

Your list says - P5P, how much? I take 50mg P5P. Many people find the amount in their B complex is enough, but I seem to need more. 50mg gives me a perfect homocysteine reading. 200mg does not change my homocysteine reading beyond that. So as far as methylation is concerned I think 50mg will do it, unless you have high blood pressure (which can be caused by high homocysteine, in which case you might consider more until you can get your bp down). Other reasonz you might take more is to protect the kidneys from glycation due to blood sugar or to help turn 5-HTP into serotonin.

choline is needed to prevent fatty liver. I get it from eggs which I eat every day. I dont know if the amount in your B complex is enough. According to this patent, choline requirements are 550mg/day for men and 425 for women: http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20101118ptan20100292339.php. I dont know how hard that is to get. It seems like I get it by diet and B complex. No fatty liver! However, I have noticed in the past that my brain feels like it's been rubbed with Vick Vaporub if I take a higher amount of choline (I forget how high). It feel sjust the way it feels if I take that high dose mfolate (the 15 pill dose or whatever) but w/o the instability feeling of needing more mB12, more this - more that - to balance it. I have 3 BHMT mutations (TMG path) so theoretically I can use more choline/bdetaine than the average person. I do not know if TMG can also prevent fatty liver - I never heard any such thing.

Anyway choline is probably in your B complex so may be enough for now. TMG is enough for methylation.

Rydra

Freddd...OMG take a look at that patent above! I cannot BELIEVE they let them patent that! All someone did is read the studies which clearly show a higher need for choline based on certain genes and THEY PATENTED THAT! Like - what? We aren't allowed to have a brain cell and READ the studies?!!! It's like someone patenting that f you have the gene that cant break down folic acid then you need methylfolate. How can anyone patent such a thing? These are natural substances and the genetic tests are done by somebody else and on the internet fr all to read! I mean it's like patenting that when you feel thirsty you need to drink!

I wonder if we wont be allowed to buy supplements because someone has a patent?! I

Hi Rydra,

I get disgusted with the patents being filed. Mb12 used with anything and everything has been patented by these splatter patents. Somebody is reading studies all day and filing patents based on them just in case somebody learns to make a buck on it so they can lock it up and make billions. SO basically they are claiming invention of the use of MB12 in combination with hundreds of other things, such as we are doing, to cure just about every disease in existance. They are throwing mud on the wall to see what sticks. SOme court somewhere may end up a sucker. There is a company who brought out a prescirption with p5p and now they are trying to get congress to take p5p off the vitamin market so they can have exclusive rights to it at 10x the price. That is the problem that occurs.

Freddd

Would you be able to look at the list of what Im taking per the link above (you asked me to post what I was taking in 2 places and I posted the full list in the post above)

For 2 days now in an attempt to get rid of the extreme brain fog (and newly onset depression - easy to tears adn very very emotional) I have not taken anything other than 1 methyl b daily, 1/4 adb12 and 2 folates - even vitamins that I was taking long before commencing methylation have been dropped.

Maybe Im chopping and changing too much but I figure a few days or aweek without in an attempt to shift this brain fog.

Thanks

Thank you for the P5P dosage advice. Interestingly, Myhill includes 100 mg P5P in her methylation protocol (which surprisingly includes glutathione which Rich and Freddd advocate against).

I will order from iherb and anxiously await positive results!

Btw, what brand of p5p do you use?

Thanks

Freddd

You say that DMG is a very weak methyl donor compared to TMG or Choline. Do you suggest supplementing with choline as it is not listed in your protocol?

You also say "TMG with another methyl group, 4 in all". What do you mean by "4 in all"?

Thank you

hi Topaz

I don't know if you have any depressive type symptoms, but if so, I'd be very careful in adding any Choline because it can make symptoms worse for many.

hi Topaz

I believe Freddd was telling you that Choline has 1 extra methyl group than TMG...4 in all. Meaning TMG has 3 methyl groups.

There is a chance DMG might downregulate the BHMT methylation pathway. Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on your genetic profile. However, taking both DMG and TMG at the same time, whatever your particular genetic profile, doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I take Country Life P5P 50 mg. I probably would take 100mg but I'm cheap and 50 seems to do the same job.
When I tried 200mg it was a different brand - I think Source Naturals.

Rydra

Well I'm not even sure it makes sense to take TMG if you take enough choline. DMG is a total waste.
These are ALL THE SAME THING. Once you take the first methyl off choline it becomes TMG.
Take another and it becomes DMG. So if you get enough choline you maybe don't need any of these.
But I take TMG because I have issues with high homocysteine (not on this protocol but w/o it)
and TMG is the one they use for that while choline is the one for fatty liver. It costs too much to
run every test. Someday maybe I'll run a homocysteine test seeing if a large enough choline dose
does it for me, but I might have to play around with the dose and it takes a few tests to calibrate.
There is choline in my multi and I get it in eggs also so I'm good.

I have depressive type symptoms and TMG doesn't make it worse. (2g). I wonder why choline might do that?

I actually got in here today because I was in a super great mood last week, during which time I started on a serious diet, maybe 800 calories a day, using a product containing tyrosine (which helps you make thyroid hormone and also curbs appetite). But after being on this a week, I just suddenly lost my good mood. I know it is a reaction to something I'm eating/not eating. It reminds me of when I was very sensitive to wheat and getting just a shred would suddenly snuff out my good mood (although that was worse). Just wondered since you seem to know something about depression if you could hazard an opinion as to possible cause?

I am wondering if it is a problem to take a single amino acid in doses of 300-900mg / day? (You know as opposed to taking all amino acids together?). Or maybe I'm just going anemic again and need iron. There has to be a way to judge this stuff w/o spending an arm and a leg running tests all the time...

Thanks
Rydra

What is your TSH? It should be about 1.9. If it is >= 2.0 then your thyroid could very well be what is causing the brain fog.
So if you are only taking such and such supplements, but not your thyroid supplement, then maybe you should take that.
But I didn't like your thyroid supplement myself. Yes, it has things in it your thyroid needs. But it also has - hang on I have
to look at it again -

oh, it's ok. I am not sure about that cysteine in it (is that NAC or like NAC which causes methylation difficulties in many?) and I don't like the taurine (because I know I make excessive taurine and dont need more), and I don't think it is healthy that you are taking 32mg zinc per day (10 in the hyroid supplement) and NO copper. I think it could (will I think it WILL) make you copper deficient.
For me most of the stuff in there would be a waste because they are in my multi...



Rydra

One thing I want to say about this and that is the more methyl donors you take the more methylation supplements you need.
I take 2g TMG because I read that people who get the most TMG from diet get appx 2g/day. I get whatever methionine and
choline is in eggs. I get the choline that is in my B complex and my multi. BUT I CALIBRATED by taking a homocysteine test
and making sure I got my homocysteine to 6.3. So I just want to say that you can't beat taking a good guess and testing
to be sure.

Is P5P a methyl donor? I've heard some people say it is and others say it isn't.

Source Naturals has a reasonably priced P5P sublingual. It's only 25mg, but since it's a sublingual it's absorbed better than taking it orally. It's large enough that it can be cut in half or even quarters if someone wants to take a low dose and/or spread it out throughout the day.