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Methyl donors, CBS and mopping up ammonia!

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by AnxiousEd, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    I am Homo CBSA360A and I went on a low thiol diet for months and although I didn't test sulfate levels I believe they dropped as I started feeling better. My general anxiety was gone for the most part but I definitely still have social anxiety and irratibility which would coincide on days with pain from injuries that were months old and still giving me grief. I started getting better because I believe the clean eating and supplementing reduced inflammation in my body. I recently figured out that it's the ammonia that is causing my anxiety, as well as a gaba/glutamate imbalance (supplements in gelatin casings increase anxiety within minutes). I realized when I take charcoal before bed I wake up the next day feeling like my wonderful extroverted self. Absolutely no anxiety, irratibility or brain fog. Now I need to figure how to keep ammonia levels down throughout the day because while I have lowered my protein intake for the cbs protocol I will ultimately go back to eating a lot of protein once my methyl cycle gets going.


    My Methylation Supplementation

    2 weeks ago I started methyl b12 and methylfolate I'm doing two 1 mg mb12 jarrow lozenges twice a day and 1.6 mgs of solgar metafolin twice a day. I don't feel better or worst... havnt noticed any real startup reactions. (FYI I don't have cfs, just brain fog, irritability, anxiety and overall inflammation and generally feeling like crap). From my understanding, if cbs was not addressed, adding methyl donors would make me feel super for a couple days (honeymoon period) and then like crap. I've also read that all my methyl donors may just go down the cbs drain never making an impact. Which is it? Am I simply dosing too low to be feeling changes or getting detox reactions?

    Back to the ammonia

    Also, to combat my ammonia problem I have ordered l arginine and l ornithine... but they are amino acids and must be taken on an empty stomach. How can I mop up the ammonia that is produced because of the protein I eat during the day? Will loading up on ornithine or arginine first thing in the morning give me enough power to mop up ammonia throughout the day? I am trying to avoid yucca because of its estrogenic properties so if any one has any other methods to mop up ammonia please don't hesitate.

    If you have any specific probiotic strains that helped with lowering ammonia production or digestive enzymes that did the same I'd appreciate if you let me know.
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I started out using yucca, but it wasn't ideal for my liver. Later used combinations of ornithine, arginine, citrulline, lysine. I was mainly using them in footbaths, as I was already using footbaths for detox. Then, after finding this thread, I switched from all of those to malic acid, also by footbath. Worked a treat.

    I'm not needing anything these days. Between my detox efforts and getting the right balance of supps, I rarely have ammonia symptoms. I still avoid high thiol foods. good luck.
     
  3. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    This SNP literally does absolutely nothing. It shouldn't be a factor in making any treatment decisions.
     
  4. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    @Valentijn, I have read the threads about yasko misinterpreting the study but the fact is I'm also hetero BHMT 2 and BHMT 8, and I used to have a very hard time dealing with sulfur supplements or foods high in thiols. I cut them out and have been supplementing molybdenum and helpin my SUOX pathway with other supplements.

    Till this day, if I take my fish oil capsule normally (swallowing the pill), I feel like crap as soon as the gelatin capsule dissolves, luckily it doesn't last long... but instead I poke a hole in it with a needle and squeeze the oil into my mouth.

    I know you are quite experienced and was hoping you would address my methylation issue. I feel like I'm missing something because I don't feel any different on the mb12 and metafolin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  5. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    @ahmo wow thanks for that link. I will be playing with my arginine, ornithine and charcoal first to see what works and what doesnt. What do you mean by it wasn't ideal for your liver? Foot baths sound Interesting... how long do you soak and what is your recipe?

    I tried l ornithine for the first time today well before I ate and it caused some brain fog. After I ate I couldn't tell if it cleared up the ammonia but I came home and took 1000 mg l arginine and that definitely cleared up the ammonia.

    Where you able to use those amino acids to mop up the ammonia throughout the day? (Without using yucca).

    Btw if anyone is interested in reading more about ammonia and how it can excite your neurons to death as well as how you can mop up excess ammonia, this site is very informative.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  6. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    The sulfur problems and those SNPs simply are not connected at all. But because those SNPs are very common, it's easy for Yasko and followers to sell a connection. A lot of people with sulfur problems will have some of those SNPs, because most people have those SNPs, regardless of sulfur problems.

    I don't think there's a good reason to assume that ammonia is the problem. I'm also not sure what you expect methylation to do for you. To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't been shown to cure anything, except perhaps B12 or folate deficiencies.
     
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I can't find any references in my notes, but I read at some point that it's hard on liver. Or, as I recall, I read this. My liver's my weak point, so I am cautious. I soak about 10-15 minutes. I compiled a conversation into a blog post re footbaths, you'll find it if you go to my profile page. Nothing special, warm water. I was using bicarb for detox, and at that time, other aminos and minerals. I just chucked in all my powdered substances.

    If needed, yes. There was a period when some of my B vitamins caused an extreme ammonia reaction. I took a lot during those days. good luck. Thanks for the ammonia article.
     
  8. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    I've always had anxiety on certain days and not on others. The difference has been night and day. When I started paying attention to how I felt after taking charcoal before bed (the next morning) It became clear. A few other expirements confirmed it. It's ammonia.

    In the beginning I was hoping to correct my anxiety by upping my b12 and folate doseage (although my blood test showed above range values from the start). Now my aim is to figure out what combo of arginine and ornithine will keep the ammonia at bay.... until I reach @ahmo 's status: @ahmo if i understand correctly you used the aminos until your methylation cycle started working and detoxing the ammonia on its own?
     
  9. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    Hey guys last night I didn't use charcoal at night and woke up feeling bad, as expected. This was planned as I wanted to see if 1 gram of arginine in the morning would detox the ammonia. One hour later I felt nothing. I took a gram of ornithine and 2 hours later, nothing but stomach aches. I still havnt ate anything at the time of this post.

    I'm forming the conclusion that I'm either using the wrong aminos or that these aminos mop up future ammonia, (hence the "take 15 minutes before eating"). I think the ammonia that is already coursing through your blood cannot be mopped up by anything but charcoal or other absorbents. Any thoughts?
     
  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I guess that's accurate. However, I switched from the aminos to malic acid only, which was at least equally effective. I don't eat high thiol foods: no eggs, onion, garlic, veggies, small portions of meat, no beans. I also continue to use rather high doses of molybdenum (3x 150mcg AM/PM). But I'm no longer suffering from those symptoms which signified ammonia for me in the past. If I ever got on top of my current symptoms, which appear to be largely about antioxidants, I'd be open to experimenting w/ foods again, but for now, it's not worth it. Good luck. I wish I could answer your questions about how these things act.
     
  11. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    @ahmo do you ever get tested for molybdenum levels? I take 250 mcg of moly daily and I eat no thiols whatsoever I'm not even done with my first bottle of 100 pills so i don't think it should be an issue for me yet although I have only cbsa60a (homo) which a lot of evidence suggests is not a big problem. Essentially, do you think your moly is getting utilized that quickly that you supplement at such high doses? I'm definitely sensitive to sulfur/thiols but I'm sure ammonia is the main culprit for my mood problems.

    In the thread about malic acid I read your body seems to prefer magnesium malate, since I was running low on mag I decided to get some malate instead of citrate. Did you notice any mood improvements from possible reduction of ammonia through the mag malate? Or individual supplementation was needed for improvement?

    Thanks for taking the time, I feel like the Shepherd in my Avatar except I feel stuck in the snow that is unstable mood and anxiety.....
     
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I'm now using mag glycinate (Doctor's Best). I've needed fewer of these than mg malate, and haven't noticed anything from having eliminated the source of malate. I don't recall any direct effect on ammonia, just that my body preferred this type when I self-tested.

    I haven't been tested for molybd, or anything else. I use self-testing. I went up to twice that amount of molybd for awhile, something aaron_c was doing. But it made no difference, so I've been at the current dose for maybe a couple years.

    Not a nice way to be stuck. My unstable mood was helped enormously by adding lithium orotate. Later, after I'd had a major detox elimination which was centered on my adrenals, lifelong irritability and agitation disappeared. I no longer experience these unless something's wrong, and if so, coffee enemas usually relieves the feelings.

    For me, I discovered my sulfur intolerance from tracing facial eczema. When I eliminated first histamines, and then sulfur, the problem disappeared. My ammonia symptoms were of my head filling up, squinty eyes, shallow breathing, a general feeling of misery. Really as if a bucket is filling up, feeling the discomfort seem to fill up my head.

    My horrific anxiety was relieved by at least 50% when I quit gluten, and getting enough B12 relieved the remaining. Aside from my lack of physical and mental energy, my mental/emotional state is, I think, better than it's been all my life.
    Good luck. It's so personal, all we can do is report what's helped us, in the hopes someone else might get positive results.
     
  13. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    @ahmo, last couple of questions I got a test coming up for plasma ammonia and homocysteine. I want to know how to prepare, especially for the ammonia. Right now I'm eating maybe 3 or 4 ounces of chicken breast per day. Much less than before I dove down this rabbit hole of getting healthy. I used to eat 12 to 16 ounces of meat a day...

    Now with the aminos, and charcoal useage plus the yucca on the way I feel I should steer clear of all 3 for 2 days and eat somewhere between 8 - 10 ounces of protein 12 hours prior to the test... to get a real idea of what kind of numbers I'm putting up. Thoughts?
     
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @AnxiousEd No idea. aaron_c might be able to help. But your plan makes sense to me, pushing it before testing.
     
  15. AnxiousEd

    AnxiousEd

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    Thank you
     

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