Methyl consumption by niacine/niacinamide

[picante]

It sure would be great to know if they measured folic acid or fully metabolized folate.

I wondered the same thing yesterday. From the "Laboratory Evaluations" paragraph:

Serum folate levels were measured by radioassay with the Quantaphase II Folate kit (Bio-Rad Laboratories).

I went as far as looking up the Quantaphase kit, which has a highly complicated lab protocol involving radioactive markers etc. etc. But they never did define "folate", the substance they're quantifying.

For me, this sentence does not instill confidence about this study:

On the one hand, the concomitant rise in allergic diseases(31;32) and serum folate levels in the United States(33) suggests that the relatively recent enrichment of the US diet with folic acid may be a risk factor for allergic disease, an observation that would be consistent with the findings in mice.

I would not bother contacting the authors, but would check other studies if you really want to know what the science says about methylfolate and allergies or methylfolate and inflammation.

Just a guess: Even if you manage to find papers that distinguish methylfolate from folic acid, they will probably not draw consistent conclusions. There is an interaction between methylfolate and B12. If you get too much methylfolate for the amount of B12 in your cells, you get blocking of B12 activity (methyl trap) and therefore inflammation.

This is the problem with uni-factorial studies.

 

[dannybex]

How much methylfolate and mb12 are you currently taking @PeterPositive, and how much niacin or niacinamide? And are you taking the latter every day or just when you're 'overmethylated'?

 

[PeterPositive]

How much methylfolate and mb12 are you currently taking @PeterPositive, and how much niacin or niacinamide? And are you taking the latter every day or just when you're 'overmethylated'?

This varies based on how I feel. At the moment I am using this:

3-4 800mcg Metafolin / day
10-15mg Methyl B12
40-50mg Niacinamide

Raising methylfolate beyond 4mg doesn't seem to add any benefits for me, while B12 seems to help. I started very low years ago and gradually I got used to it and raised the dose. With 10+ mg / day I can keep a decent amount of mental focus throughout the day.

Lowering or suspending B12 causes a decline in mental functions and mood stability in 2-3 weeks. Also pain increases quite badly. I guess I'll have to be a B12 junkie for life...

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wondered the same thing yesterday. From the "Laboratory Evaluations" paragraph:

I went as far as looking up the Quantaphase kit, which has a highly complicated lab protocol involving radioactive markers etc. etc. But they never did define "folate", the substance they're quantifying.

For me, this sentence does not instill confidence about this study:


I would not bother contacting the authors, but would check other studies if you really want to know what the science says about methylfolate and allergies or methylfolate and inflammation.

Just a guess: Even if you manage to find papers that distinguish methylfolate from folic acid, they will probably not draw consistent conclusions. There is an interaction between methylfolate and B12. If you get too much methylfolate for the amount of B12 in your cells, you get blocking of B12 activity (methyl trap) and therefore inflammation.

This is the problem with uni-factorial studies.

In my personal experience, low B2 will result in unmetabolized folate in serum. I just recovered from anemia w/o taking any Mefolate since I had high serum levels of "folic acid" as the local labs refer to it, even though I have had no source of it in my diet since June 2013. I think if one is afraid of not methylating folate just take B2. I remember when Christine led Rich van K to conclude exactly this in the B2 I love you thread. It happened to me. When I begun my supplementation for anemia my serum "folic acid" was 16.5 ng/mL and dropped to 13.7 afterwards. Serum B12 went from 847,3 pg/mL to 666,2. I my view, the "excess" in serum got converted and properly utilized to build new RBCs.

I think copper has been given a bad reputation even though it is very much needed for RBC synthesis. I think especially those who have supplemented lots of zinc for a long time might have run into copper deficiency. I might even be copper toxic myself, but I only got better by supplementing it - in tiny amounts and paired with Zinc.

I will risk to say that if your serum folate is above 13 ng/mL, perhaps you are deficient in some other B vitamin, or a mineral.

 

[dannybex]

That's interesting @Gondwanaland re the b2 possibly activating or helping utilize the folic acid.

I have a book by Dr. Derrick Lonsdale, whose focus was thiamine deficiency, and he talked about a case where this kid had high b12 and folic acid levels every time he had an infection (pale, irritable, high fever, sore throat and swollen glands). Every time he gave him high doses of thiamine (injections, then tablets) the fever and infection would subside and he'd be well. But each time they stopped the thiamine, he'd be okay for 2-3 weeks then get very sick again and once again his b12 and folic levels were elevated.

Lonsdale hypothesized that he needed the thiamine (and a b complex) to create the energy required to activate the B12 and folic.

 

[picante]

I think if one is afraid of not methylating folate just take B2. I remember when Christine led Rich van K to conclude exactly this in the B2 I love you thread. It happened to me. When I begun my supplementation for anemia my serum "folic acid" was 16.5 ng/mL and dropped to 13.7 afterwards. Serum B12 went from 847,3 pg/mL to 666,2. I my view, the "excess" in serum got converted and properly utilized to build new RBCs.

That is fascinating. I'm sure your view is accurate.

The reason I'm not tolerating a whole capsule (10 mg) of R-5-P at a time is that it causes hot flashes. So I'm taking 1/2 cap 3Xday.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The reason I'm not tolerating a whole capsule (10 mg) of R-5-P at a time is that it causes hot flashes. So I'm taking 1/2 cap 3Xday.

That is strange. If someone told me she is having hot flashes I would suggest to take B2. But I never tried anything other than low doses, which is what is working for you.

 

[Gondwanaland]

BTW I thought I should add my iron and ferritin levels here so you guys can gauge the variation in this mineral from supplementation with B vits:

1) Anemia (RBC count 3.64)
Iron = 114 mcg/dL
Ferritin = 143,5 mcg/L

2) Anemia worsened by zinc (RBC count 3.58)
Ferritin = 125.9 mcg/L

3) Recovered from anemia (RBC count 4.03)
Iron = 81 mcg/dL
Ferritin = 101,5 mcg/L

RBC ref. range = 4,0 - 5,4
Iron ref. range = 50 - 170 mcg/dL
Ferritin ref. range = 24 - 155 µg/L

 

[knackers323]

I recently took 4 times the recommended daily dose of niacinamide and got a huge headache, depression, sore glands in neck and some fatigue.


I take it this points to a methylation issue.

I read online that taking niacinamide cab boost the immune system by 3000%. This is obviously an exaggeration

 

[dannybex]

I'm guessing you're not taking any methylation supps @knackers323 ?

 

[picante]

I recently took 4 times the recommended daily dose

How much was that?

 

[knackers323]

@dannybex @picante pretty sure they were 1500mg tablets slow release. Not taking any other supps. Thanks

 

[Avengers26]

@Gondwanaland How much copper were you taking with zinc?

Interesting observation about high folate. i have had high folate for years (repeated tests always show above limits). But a nutreval test done earlier this year showed severe folate deficiency & recommended 1.2 mg folate daily. I finally upped my folate to that amount 2 weeks ago. I am taking 2-3 mg sublingual mb12 with it.

I can't tolerate B2 (recently shifted to R5P, the active form, but with no difference) beyond the tiniest speck (I open the capsule). I have tried upping it several times over the last 2 years unsuccessfully.

 

[Gondwanaland]

How much copper were you taking with zinc?

This was my regime

I can't tolerate B2 (recently shifted to R5P, the active form, but with no difference) beyond the tiniest speck (I open the capsule). I have tried upping it several times over the last 2 years unsuccessfully.

I think one must be sure to have enough B1, B6, iron and copper for RBC/Heme synthesis.

 

[Kimsie]

I think in the rat studies they found that if they gave B6 the homocysteine levels came back down.

Keep in mind that 100 grams of beef meat (not fat) has about 500 mg of methionine. This would be used up by 500 mg of niacinamide, but not niacin, since most of the niacin in a dose that size will be conjugated with glycine instead of methylated, which requires changing it to niacinamide first. I guess about 50 mg or maybe a little more of that much niacin would be changed to niacinamide and methylated, from the studies I have looked at.

Some members of my family have taken 3 grams for niacinamide for weeks without any signs of methylation problems (6 grams caused vomiting in 1 day). With niacin one son has gone much higher with 9 grams for quite a while without any problems.

It just goes to show that there are a lot of factors involved and each person is different. I think methylation issues are often a result of availability of other nutrients and other factors, rather than actually being availability of methyl groups. For instance B6 deficiency can slow methylation by causing a high SAM/SAH ratio, even when SAM levels are normal.

 

[bensmith]

I just took my first niacin pill, 500 mlg. Very flushed and bad lower back(kidney?) pain. Is this ok? It seems from reading the post it is. I also addrd tmg today, and some liq mag.

i do take b comlex also. And thiamine. No imporovemnt but when i added niacin pretty decent improvement, or the tmg. But the lower back pain was moderate to severe.

adding one of these has boosted me a considerable amount i think.

 

[Hoosierfans]

I just took my first niacin pill, 500 mlg. Very flushed and bad lower back(kidney?) pain. Is this ok? It seems from reading the post it is. I also addrd tmg today, and some liq mag.

i do take b comlex also. And thiamine. No imporovemnt but when i added niacin pretty decent improvement, or the tmg. But the lower back pain was moderate to severe.

adding one of these has boosted me a considerable amount i think.

How is it going with the niacin / tmg?

 

[bensmith]

Im doing about 1 gram a day. Maybe helping a bit?

 

[Hoosierfans]

Im doing about 1 gram a day. Maybe helping a bit?

Good to know. Niacin has been one of the only things that makes a dent for me, but it poops out after a few days. I’m trying it again so curious how it was going for you. I’m planning on working up to as much as 3 g / day.

 

[bensmith]

Ive thought about increasing too but havent yet, hope it goes well. I will start nad+ soonish.