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Methyl B12 issues (OCD,irritability)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by uriraha, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. uriraha

    uriraha

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    israel
    Hello

    Just wanted to start by saying this is very informative forum.
    I rade about Methyl B12 here and how it can help with some mental issues.
    So i decided to give it a try. i tried taking 500 mcg of methyl B12 (by douglas labs) but it made me feel very anxious and my ocd got worse i tried taking it in lower doses felt the same but with less strength.
    I suffer from depression,CFS,anxiety for many years i currently take risperdal to help me manage my anxiety issue.
    The B12 does really improve my cognition. I rade that adding Folinic Acid can help with this methyl B12 side effects.
    I am currently taking magnesium bisglycintae, probiotics and omega 3.
    My B12 serum levels were low 300 when i checked.
    I tried taking b complex by pure encapsultaions which has 400 mcg of methyl B12 and 400 of methyl folate 5-MTHF and i was even worse than just taking methyl B12.
    Does it mean i am over methylator? I don't have a job right now so i can't check if i am MTHFR
    I will appreciate any help
    Thanks :)
     
  2. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Hi @uriraha ,

    OCD and irritability can be associated with the MTHFR A1298C mutation and resulting low tetrahydrobiopterin production. Theoretically methylfolate supplementation would help. But just for argument's sake, we could suppose that you have MTR +/+ also, which encourages your methylfolate to be used to convert homocysteine to methionine instead of making the BH4 you need. But MTR needs methylB12 to work, so when you take the methylB12, you enable it to decrease your BH4 production, using up whatever methylfolate you have. And it's not a one-to-one issue: one molecule of methylB12 can help MTR use up many, many methylfolate molecules.

    Have you tried methylfolate without any B12? Have you tried it with cyanoB12 or hydroxyB12 instead of methylB12? I'm not asking you to try it, just wondering if you had any data on that.

    My other thought is that when you do take methylB12, maybe it's not the BH4 that's affected so much as your methyl cycle making more SAMe, and SAMe might be affecting your neurotransmitters and that might be what is making you worse. Have you tried taking SAMe (and I am NOT recommending you take that - it might be worse than taking methylB12, but if you have tried it, it would be information).

    What kind of B12 were you taking when it improved your cognition? Did the improving your cognition and being worse happen at the same time? or did B12 improve your cognition and the combination of B12 methylfolate make you worse? Sorry to be so picky about the details.
     
  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I have had similar issues with methyl-B12 when I initially started. Even a 250mcg dose would trigger anxiety. My doctor prescribed 1000mcg but at that dose I was getting to jittery and anxious.

    I then switched to Adenosyl-B12 and didn't have any neurological symptoms, this allowed me to regain some energy, lower homocysteine and raise B12 serum levels. 3 months ago I've started methyl-B12 again and now I can tolerate it up to 1500mcg without noticeable issues.

    I don't think you need to be an "overmethylator" to have side effects from methyl-B12. In my case I am definitely an undermethylator.

    Have you ever had your serum homocysteine levels tested? It could give you an indication of your methylation status and it's not very expensive.
     
    whodathunkit likes this.
  4. uriraha

    uriraha

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    israel
    Hey

    Thanks for your answers

    Critterina I tried once to take b complex with 400 mcg of L-5-MTHF but it also contained 400 mcg of methyl B12.
    Then i felt even worse my anxiety was off the roof..
    I didn't try methylfolate by itself.
    I did try cyanoB12 when i took it i was also a little bit anxious but much less than the methyl B12, but also i didn't fell so good on it.

    I feel improvement in my cognition when i took the methyl B12 by itself (more energy, and clear head). but the anxiety i fell doesn't worth it.
    When i took it with in the b complex with the methyl folate i felt worse but i don't know if it's the methylfolate which caused it cause there were other vitamin B's in this b complex. Pure encapsulations b complex

    Do you think trying methylfolate by itself will help me?
    What do you think about folinic acid is it the same as methylfolate?
    I didn't try SAMe

    I used to take multivitamin (solgar) without any methyl forms for 10 years and i stopped cause i felt it made my CFS worse and it really did (i realized it after i stopped it). but my mental condition worsened since stopping it (i can't focus as i did, don't have any motivation much more depressed)

    Do you think i should return to some kind of multi?
    I need to do the homocysteine test this week.
     
  5. uriraha

    uriraha

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    israel
    Hey
    Thanks for your answer

    Critterina I tried once to take b complex with 400 mcg of L-5-MTHF but it also contained 400 mcg of methyl B12.
    Then i felt even worse my anxiety was off the roof..
    I didn't try methylfolate by itself.
    I did try cyanoB12 when i took it i was also a little bit anxious but much less than the methyl B12, but also i didn't fell so good on it.

    I feel improvement in my cognition when i took the methyl B12 by itself (more energy, and clear head). but the anxiety i fell doesn't worth it.
    When i took it with in the b complex with the methyl folate i felt worse but i don't know if it's the methylfolate which caused it cause there were other vitamin B's in this b complex. Pure encapsulations b complex

    Do you think trying methylfolate by itself will help me?
    What do you think about folinic acid is it the same as methylfolate?
    I didn't try SAMe

    I used to take multivitamin (solgar) without any methyl forms for 10 years and i stopped cause i felt it made my CFS worse and it really did (i realized it after i stopped it). but my mental condition worsened since stopping it (i can't focus as i did, don't have any motivation much more depressed)

    Do you think i should return to some kind of multi?
     
  6. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Uriaha,

    I rade about Methyl B12 here and how it can help with some mental issues.

    Yes it can. I had lifelong depression that started to lift in one hour. It took months and additional items to stop multi sensory hallucinations. I had high irritability and emotional volatility for 9 months of neurological healing after years of irritability. We called that "Mr. Hyde" at another website. B12 deficiency causes every variety of mood and personality symptoms up to and including "megaloblastic madness, the most florid psychosis known to man".

    Do you have anxiety normally? Is that one of your usual symptoms? Are you more than usually risk adverse? People with that tend to have an anxiety response to starting methylation and/or ATP production. This appears to be an effect of injury or inflammation or non-function of some of the neurons in the limbic circuit part of the brain. The biggest effects are usually from LCF after the other 3 are started but that depends upon which part(s) of the deadlock quartet they are deadlocked on. Several people have titrated these items and had the anxiety go away after some period of months as it appears that the neurological damage or inflammation is corrected. I don't have anxiety myself and haven't experienced it myself. I have had a lot of people describe it to me. MeCbl is reported in research to have beneficial neurological effects unmatched by CyCbl or HyCbl.

    You might find the separate Enzymatic therapy MeCbl and the Anabol Naturals Dibencozide, of which you can take a crumb and titrate slowly is a better choice. Then a person can take a crumb, even several times a day, and keep just at the edge of the anxiety. Often the edge will move back. Both AdoCbl and MeCbl are required to heal various problems with the nerves. The Methylfolate and MeCbl turn on methylation much better than MeCbl all alone. Avoiding turning on methylation isn't a solution as that also avoids enabling cell reproduction and healing these things. The anxiety is usually caused by neurological problems that the deadlock quartet can heal.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Uriraha

    Folinic acid might make all you folate deficiency symptoms much worse, same as folic acid for many. Methylfolate without MeCbl can be dangerous to neurological health and cause neurological damage called Sub Acute Combined Degeneration.

    I think that a fixed ratio multi will cause more problems than it can fix. Separates allow you to control each individual item and to titrate them slowly and keep things under more control. The things you are suffering are typically because of deficiencies. People without deficiencies of these items have no response at all to these nutritional items, AdoCbl, MeCbl, l-methylfolate and L-carnitine. Other items control rate of use and such, including B1, B2 and b3 and can mess up somebody's vitamin balance by having too much. The rate of use of methylfolate for instance is controlled by B1. I have just posted elsewhere that doses much in excess of 15mg can overdrive the methylfolate for instance. This is tricky.
     
  9. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @uriraha ,
    I'm going to have to think on this. And I'm moving this weekend, so if you don't hear from me within a week, message me. The questions I can answer are:

    Multi? No, I think you're sensitive to something, and you need to figure out what it is, one vitamin at a time.

    Folinic acid? Like Freddd said, some people get in trouble with it. It appears to be about the same as methylfolate if you are MTHRF C667T -/-. But you don't know what you are...so I'd stay away from it for now. Not worth the risk.

    methylfolate alone? Well, i can't say I think it will help. I'd say 50/50 chances. 50 it will help; 50 it won't help and maybe you'll have a bad reaction. Maybe one day you'll feel the need to experiment on yourself. If you do, let me know how it goes. It's possible that methylfolate will help, and that once you are established in that, that you'll be able to add a little hydroxycobalamin with good result. I wouldn't try adding the methylcobalamin, though. At least not first.

    I don't know, @uriraha . It's a mystery to me what's going on and what might help. For me doing the testing was the right answer, but I know that the time has to be right for it to make financial sense. Best wishes!
     
  10. uriraha

    uriraha

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    israel

    Hey Freddd

    Thanks for the priceless info :)

    Yes anxiety was always part of my life. must of the time it's under control but when i reach stressful situation i begin to lose it. I saw a video about this problem which relates stress to MTHFR.
    If i start low and go slow do you think i will be able to tolerate methyl B12 better?
    Or should i add methyl folate with the methyl B12 in order to make it work better?
    Do you think trying Dibencozide will be better choice than hydroxy B12? I tried taking cyanocobalamin but it made me feel very bad i didn't have anxiety but it felt like i have flu shivering and muscle cramps.
    I also have sensitivities to various chemicals like Bleach, perfumes, cleaning products.
    Do you think this is also indicates about problems with the MTHFR?

    Thnaks
     
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi uriraha, you're like the poster child for methylation issues. Poor methylation can cause a wide range of issues, both physical and mental. Watch my Methylation Made Easy videos (linked in my signature) for a general overview.

    It sounds like you may have COMT mutations. So you can try hydroxycobalamin instead of methylcobalamin. 500mcg of methylcobalamin is a huge starting dose for sensitive people, (basically everyone on this forum).

    Please read my Start Low and Go Slow document linked in my signature for how to divide supps up into very tiny doses.

    If you're still having problems even with very tiny doses, like 1mcg, you may have a CBS problem and need to treat for that. This was my situation.

    You'll have to play around with whether hydroxy by itself, or hydroxy + adenosyl, or hydroxy+ methyl+ adenosyl, low doses of methyl+ adenosyl, etc. make you feel better. And also whether you tolerate folinic or not.

    Start a symptom journal and record notes on your symptoms either good or bad as you try various combinations out.

    The B Complex contained oral B12 which absorbs so poorly you might as well not even count it. Taking methylfolate without B12 can either cause methyl trapping (stopping methylation) or deplete B12 stores even more. Both of these will make you feel worse. This happened to me.

    You always need to add a sublingual or injection B12 to a multivitamin containing methylfolate.
     
  12. Soccermanjb

    Soccermanjb

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    Hello all! I'm new here. I have a question. My doc has just done a histamine blood work and mine came back low. I have tried supplements for methyl cycle in past but my doc did not fully know what he was doing... I went thru hell for a while... Just yesterday he informed me that the low blood histamine meant I was possibly an overmethylator. Which would make sense with my horrible reaction to methyl donors. I am currently taking a ridiculously small amount of hydroxy b12... Barely a drop. Would love any feedback or help on what supplements to start with... I think this time around niacin will be a bigger player. And I will not use methyl folate but will probably use folinic acid... Thank you for your time.
    One last question... My doc is wanting to do a mitochondrial failure protocol to fix my atp energy before starting on methylation. His idea is maybe this is where my big problem lies and fixing it would help the over methylation issue. Any thoughts? It comes a long with supplements too like ATP fuel d ribose etc... Thx again.

    God bless
    -Jon
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Soccermanjb: read some posts by @Radio. Fixing mitochondira and ATP production is one of his favorite topics.

    Myself, I like d-ribose a lot. It adds a lot of energy for me. But I think it might make some people too speedy so you might want to start low and go slow if you try it.
     
  14. Soccermanjb

    Soccermanjb

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    Thx for your response @whodathunkit. I will check his out. I have been on d ribose for over a year now but can't take much more than 3-4g a day bc it makes my heart pound real hard.. Doc thinks that if we get other substrates in order first it will help with that. Main question is what should you fix first methylation or ATP? The reading may answer that.
    PS my gut is a swamp and every time I try to take a live culture probiotic even just 25billion cultures I have to stop after second day... The only one I've been able to handle its tru nature 10billion and it's like only one strand... Today I have tried doubling my normal dose to see what happens bc I know I need to fix gut but have never made progress after so many failed attempts.
     
  15. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Soccermanjb: try Genestra HMF probiotics. They're from human strains, no animal. I tolerate them better than any probiotics I've ever tried. Got that tip from another member here called @stridor.

    Glutamine is good for your gut. It can be contraindicated for some genetic polymorphisms but if you don't have your genetics you might give it a try to see how you do on it. It helped me quite a bit.

    Fixing the gut can be a hard slog. But it will pay off in the end.

    I would say go after ATP first since you have a known problem there. You need to be able to handle the increase in metabolism methylation brings. Without fixing some underlying problems you might not be able to. I didn't have to fix anything right before I stared doing methylation supplements, but that's because for two years prior to hitting this board I'd been prepping myself for methylation and didn't even know it. I'd chelated for heavy metals, worked on my gut, worked on my adrenals and thyroid, all kinds of things. So when I finally landed here I was ready to go. But if I hadn't done all that prior to getting here, I probably would have had to go much slower and fix other issues first, before successfully starting methylation.
     
    Soccermanjb likes this.
  16. Soccermanjb

    Soccermanjb

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    @whodathunkit Thx... That's what I was looking for as far as which I should do first. A couple questions.

    Does it say how many billion cultures it has? Do they get the strains from humans?
    Any advice on which one I should get? Im extremely sensitive to everything.
    Could you tell a difference after starting these?
    What should I expect after starting it? Detox?

    I'm really interested in trying them. Where do you get yours from? Will amazon be okay?

    I guess I should start out with just the hmf capsules... They are the lowest dose with only 4 billion cultures. Should I do that and work my way up?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  17. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Soccermanjb: I'm no expert and I don't know how many billions of organisms you can tolerate. You need to decide that for yourself. Based on what you say I would advise starting low and going slow.

    I got mine from Rockwell Nutrition. They have an option to have it shipped with an ice pack, which I like. Info says it's not necessary but I always like to hedge my bets.

    Rockwell website also has a wide selection of the Genestra products with information/description about each different supplement. I suggest you read each description and decide where you want to start. I started with an intense one but I've been working on my gut for a while so decided to take a chance. Again, I wouldn't advise that for you but only you can decide which one to start.

    My poops are better from taking them. Also, when I take larger amounts I don't get an itchy bum hole or the runs like with other probiotics. No need to thank me for TMI. ;)

    I'll try to get you the name or a link to the nice product that my doctor put me on for my gut a couple years ago. It contained glutamine and some epithelial growth factor and some other stuff. A good product. Just can't remember what it was called right now.
     
  18. Soccermanjb

    Soccermanjb

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    @whodathunkit Thx for ALL the info!:thumbsup: I am currently taking glutamine but can only take like 250mg a day otherwise my heart starts pounding real hard. Btw I have done Yasko gene testing... I could upload the file if interested in seeing my SNPs.
     
  19. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I don't really know anything about snp's at this point. I just go on my symptoms and how stuff makes me feel. I want to get my genes tested but can't bring myself to do it b/c I still have deep suspicions about what Da Man might do with my genetic data if he ever got his hands on it. :p

    I heard that about glutamine and some people. Sorry you're one of them. Possibly this product might not be that good for you then. But if I can find it and I remember I'll post it for you just in case.
     
    Soccermanjb likes this.
  20. Soccermanjb

    Soccermanjb

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    Yeah it's been a frustrating 3 year journey... Seems like I can only take low doses of things... And nothing I take has made a noticeable difference so far. I have ordered the probiotics. I was 175lbs when I got sick and now I'm down to 124lbs... It feels like there is still something inside me keeping me down.. CFS is rough... I have such gut issues from slow motility to allergies food sensitivities where it seems like it can never get better... From my gene testing it said I had a double mutation in my shmt gene... Which can lead to gut inflammation etc...
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014

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