August 8th, 2016: Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis
Jody Smith joins with other ME voices in honor of Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Methyl B12 feel dizzy after eating

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by useraccount2014, Nov 16, 2014.

  1. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    I just started taking 1 mg MB12 three days ago. For the past two days, after I eat a meal, I feel really really dizzy for a good 2-3 hours. I don't feel nauseous really - but the room is spinning around as if I have had way too much to drink - and I just want to lie down. My thoughts are also not entirely "with it" during that period.

    Has this happened to anyone else?

    Sorry if this has already been asked but I literally just joined the forum and my computer screen is moving back and forth across my vision at this time, so I will be searching through posts tomorrow morning.

    Thanks for the help!
     
  2. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

    Messages:
    681
    Likes:
    387
    Southeast
    Do you or have you had mercury amalgams?
     
  3. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    Nope. However, I started taking the MB12 because I have been having some problems the past couple of months that I am now thinking might be due to heavy metal issues (used to think it was a methylation problem).

    Life was great until 4 months ago when I took a large dose of methylfolate and then a large dose of Niacin (500 mg). After the niacin, I haven't been the same and have had this "block" in my head, cognitive decline, difficulty concentrating, brain fog, etc. Took B12 with no results. Also took lithium but that made things far worse and made me really depressed and hopeless for a week (no history of mental problems).

    Thanks,
     
  4. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    Lithium was a small dose supplement to help "transport" B12. The problems really step from the niacin which I think may have ruptured the fat cells and released toxic metals.
     
  5. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

    Messages:
    681
    Likes:
    387
    Southeast
    How long did you take these and how much per day. If you can give a timeline should help somewhat. And anything else you were taking during this last few months.

    A single dose of 500mg Niacin causing a lasting issue is beyond me. How large was the methylfolate dose?

    Wondering... Did it stop your methylation? If it is heavy metals can you take a binder to get them out?

    I've had brain fog for a while and seems only being on the SMP helps in a lasting way. Do you take magnesium?
     
  6. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    7/20 took one pill 7.5 mg Methylfolate (deplin) - Felt brain fogged for several days and thought (incorrectly) that I was overmethylating

    7/24 took one 500 mg dose of Niacin - This is where my life changed. I felt extremely "trippy" for several days from the niacin. I could hear all of the instruments in music, but not feel the base. Lighting looked different. I have had some social anxiety my whole life but it disappeared completely - but I also lost my ability to feel "thrill" and "excitement" and adrenaline. The niacin sort of wore off in 10-15 days, but I was left with this "block" in my head where I couldn't feel excitement - the block literally was limiting my brain function.

    It got worse. Over the next couple of months, I lost my ability to make connections quickly. I also started to feel this "juice" flowing through my brain. I started having dreams at night for the fist time in years. Something was very wrong though - I had difficulty concentrating some days and would zone out all of the time, I also couldn't figure out anything (it was like I was only relying on information I already knew to solve problems). My thinking became slow and I became "dumb" compared to how I was before the niacin. I began to have difficulty orienting myself in locations (so, when walking down the street, I am now slow to realize where I am and then figure out how to orient my direction). I also forget things that I was just told or was talking about. I had delayed reaction times and no sense of "thrill" anymore (not depression, though). Also could literally feel a block in my head.

    Eventually I tried taking B12 which caused something to change - I felt some of the "juice" flow through my head for about a week but then it stopped. I was taking 500 mcg cyanocobalamin a day and then increased to 1 mg before stopping. The problems continued to get worse. I eventually tried more methylfolate (small dose) with methyl B12, but all this did was make me feel like a rubber band was wrapped tightly around the back part of my brain / head. Also had been taking magnesium but not effects.

    I then tried lithium because lithium can "transport the folate and B12 into the cells." The 5 mg lithium made me feel extremely hopeless and depressed unlike I have ever felt in my entire life - ever. I became more social and started saying dumb things out loud that I would never say before. I stopped caring about life in general because "none of it matters." I also lost my sex drive and appetite for several days - though these have started to come back. I also would fail to notice things happening around me and I literally felt my brain turn to mush. It was as if I became unaware of what I was unaware of - so ignorant. Every 3 days or so I would feel like I was "60% recovered from the lithium" and then 3 days later I would feel even better, but still at 60% - that shows how lithium messed up my baseline and awareness of what I am aware of.

    Then I tried the methyl B12 as described above.

    Problems still remain.

    Thanks!
     
  7. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

    Messages:
    681
    Likes:
    387
    Southeast
    Question: regarding your diet. Any cilantro especially on the "Day Of" the niacin? Did you eat a lot of sulfur type foods (onion, garlic, brocolli) or supplements like chlorella.

    Niacin does open up the blood vessles, capillaries etc... Not sure if increases the permeability of the BBB

    Does sound like the large dose of MFolate may have mobilized something.

    Now that sounds like a good thing!

    One thing I can note is that you have taken a large dose of MFolate but not any equivalent of B12. If you are swallowing your B12 you might as well have flushed it. Sublingual Mb12 is mostly what we use around here and at least a 1:1 mFolate:MB12.

    This is a tough one because of all the head/brain type symptoms. Brain fog is nothing new around here but some of the other things you mention (juice, rubber band).

    Off the cuff I'd think you need to take some MB12. Maybe the MFolate used up all your B12. Maybe you have MTR and MTRR mutations like be and are already deficient in B12.

    I know when I was Methyl-Trapped (too much folate for the b12) I was very depressed. Like someone hit the gas pedal on my usual mild depression. The flatness you speak of I've been there. A lot of times that will happen after taking activated charcoal. I don't feel good, or bad... just indifferent. In this case maybe part of your depressiveness.

    The Niacin, which is supposed to mop up methyl donors, if that includes MB12 then you may have depleted the rest of your b12 and ate up anything that would keep methylation spinning. (again brings me back to lack of MB12).

    I hope others @Critterina, @Gondwanaland, @adreno , @Martial wlll chime in here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  8. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    Thanks for the info! I don't remember what I ate that day but I likely had a turkey bacon cheddar sandwich with some onion on it.

    So the MB12 did make me really really dizzy when I would finish eating a meal... should I start it again?

    Are there any possible problems that could occur if I took, sat 500 mcg MB12 a day and NO Methylfolate? So, can MB12 cause its own form of trapping or is there no b12-trap?

    Thanks!
     
  9. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

    Messages:
    681
    Likes:
    387
    Southeast
    Let's wait until others chime in before you do take anything else.

    If this might be a heavy metals issue, that is my concern. (See this thread)

    Taking the MB12 with no Methylfolate is ok and is what you take to relieve methyl-trapping
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
  10. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

    Messages:
    681
    Likes:
    387
    Southeast
    My concern is that methyl B12, I've read, can methylate mercury and make regular elemental mercury into very virulent methyl-mercury.

    "In the case of attaching a methyl group (CH-3) onto mercury, elemental mercury becomes methyl mercury (MeHg). MeHg is about 100 times more damaging to the nervous system than elemental mercury. MeHg has an affinity for the nervous system, so it will be attracted to the place where it can do the most damage."

    found several places, here is one: http://www.baumancollege.org/forum/index.php?topic=1586.0

    Maybe @stridor can chime in and hopefully @Critterina and @adreno as I believe they have experience with mercury.
     
  11. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,204
    Likes:
    702
    Arizona, USA
    Thanks for tagging me. I've got a note to follow up, but I need to find a time when I can concentrate on this. I don't have mercury experience - I tested low. But I have read the same about methylmercury being really bad (of course, they didn't test for this.) So I'm not ignoring you, but I have to get time to think through the whole post.
     
  12. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,204
    Likes:
    702
    Arizona, USA
    @useraccount2014 ,
    OK, before we start, you said you had no history of mental problems, but you took a Deplin. Why would you do that?
     
  13. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    Several years earlier I had developed some social anxiety and some slight seasonal depression (not severe at all, just would feel a little down in the winter, and never required treatment). It was never really a problem but I thought I would experiment with potential solutions (I was also bored, had nothing else going on, and was waiting to start a new job in the fall... I'm 23). I realize now that it wasn't anxiety - just a greater awareness of what was going on around me, which is a good thing. I came across methylation / Deplin in my research and encouraged the doctor to prescribe it. Big mistake.
     
  14. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    Also to add some more description - it literally feels like my brain is rotting. After taking the methyl B12 I now feel as if I don't even notice what I am missing as much (similar to the lithium). I feel calm / too "happy" in some ways but I know something is very, very wrong. I am noticing less and less of what I am missing / how my mental capacity is being reduced - now I am just unaware of it. For example, I go to work and will feel as if everything is fine (though I know its not) but then make a significant number of errors in my work that I would never have made in the past (and those are only what I notice or what gets pointed out to me). I am also too social now (I used to be introverted). I seem to have lost all conception of social embarrassment, for example. I just don't feel it. I don't have extra energy though and am not doing anything stupid - just saying stupid things that I never would have considered saying before. I also now become easily irritated / frustrated - for example if I don't eat enough food at lunch I feel frustrated. I don't think I have ever felt that way about food before - ever. The best way to describe it is that I feel like I am in the brain of myself when I was 14 years old, except not as good. I almost feel like I am 12-14 years old but not in the good way. This is difficult to describe but its very very wrong - something is not right. I just ordered 4 different tests, but won't get results for two weeks. I am now feeling a light pressure in the top front of my head.

    Thanks again for any thoughts / help.
     
  15. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,204
    Likes:
    702
    Arizona, USA
    OK, so sometimes being more aware of what is going on around you can naturally cause anxiety - completely understood! And the transition from being a student to working for a living is the first big transition most of us go through - the biggest career change of a life (I say now approaching retirement), and the one you have the least control over. I mean most of us get to choose our spouse. And for future reference, often some Vitamin D and/or a light box help many with seasonal depression (so does moving south, so you get more daylight in the winter.)

    I went to bed last night thinking that some of what is going on may be caused by your supplements and it may be coincidental. I made some major mistakes attributing reactions to the wrong stimuli. So keep that in the back of your mind. Maybe you're undergoing some neurological changes that would have happened anyway. If it keeps not making sense, dig this possibility out again.

    Have you had your SNPs done? The 23andMe test. I would have a better guess based on what those are. Since no major neuro symptoms in your history, probably not MTHFR A1298C +/+. So the Deplin could have spun, not the methylation cycle, but the biopterin cycle, which controls the neurotransmitter production. You were brain-fogged. I suppose that could have come from over-production or imbalance of neurotransmitters.

    You don't mention any cardiovascular or peripheral neuropathy issues, but you're young and they can take twice your age to develop, so I can't rule out the possibility that you have MTRR A66G +/+. And it did make juices flow in your brain for a while. In that case, the methylation cycle is blocked from lack of B12 (I'm still talking your initial Deplin dose), and most of it goes to biopterin/ neurotransmitter. Funny you weren't anxious or depressed, but just brain fogged. And not extra sleepy or wired.

    So, say that happened, if it did, the neurotransmitter cycle could be limited by the lack of SAMe and other methylation cycle products needed for the neurotransmitters. Then when you used the niacin, you were trippy but lost affect and "thrill" which I will take as adrenaline. To me, this could be neurotransmitter-related, but also adrenal, which you might overlook at your own peril. (The spinning room can be low cortisol, too.) And then continued cognitive decline.

    Are you vegan? If you used up your essential amino acids (tryptophan in particular) when you spun the biopterin cycle, you'd have little to make precursors when you started taking B12 (thus supplying the methylation products. It would take a while to get them back. Well, this is getting to be a really wild story. And a tight band around the head is often too much Vitamin B6, which you aren't even taking. (But sometimes that happens - ask @AndyPandy or @PennyIA)

    Bottom line, I think there are needs in your body that aren't being met, and the doses you took just threw a wrench in the works. There are substrates and enzymes, and they are out of whack. Maybe that's because of SNPs keeping some of the biochemical pathway gates open just a little. Maybe it's because you don't have the substrates (proteins mostly) for them to work on.

    I realize you may not have health insurance (waiting for a job) and probably don't have much money (waiting for a job), so testing may not be very practical. If you have insurance, though, it would be worth getting tested, and we can work on what to test later. I would love to see an amino acid panel on you. So, you can continue to be your own lab rat, also. But with the problems you've encountered so far, I think you know to proceed with caution. So, what to try without testing?

    First, see @caledonia 's signature page and take the Start Low and Go Slow to heart.

    Second, check out the sources of essential amino acids at this post:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/taurine-confusion.33886/#post-525779
    and be sure you are getting good sources of all the amino acids your body can't make. (This is why tryptophan is so important in the diet while tyrosine is not, for most people.)

    Third, without labs or SNPs, what proteins, cofactors (mostly minerals) and enzymes (mostly vitamins) to add is going to be trial and error. Spend a week or so on essential amino acids in your diet first. Then I would add small amounts, and one at a time, of the following:
    • Tryptophan (500 mg or less, or maybe work up to that over a week) - after one dose, see what happens. If nothing or good, give it time. Look for increased interest in life, but it may be delayed until you get some of the rest going
    • Magnesium (200 mg or less, maybe work up to 400 mg) or take Epsom salt baths.
    • Vitamin D (not much until you can get tested, maybe just the RDA?)
    • A good active-B multi, like Jarrow B Right. Maybe take a fraction to begin with.
    • A sublingual methylB12 (maybe just crumbs to begin with - what sticks to a toothpick drawn through a crushed tablet)
    • Look at the simplified methylation protocol that @sregan described and maybe work into it.

    That is more than enough to get you started thinking. And while you may experience some immediate results, just go slow with low doses. Please don't do anything just because I say you might or that I would. I have made plenty of mistakes, and probably added to that list on this page. Hoping your job will have insurance benefits and that you'll have someone good to work with.

    You asked:
     
    stridor, sregan and PennyIA like this.
  16. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,204
    Likes:
    702
    Arizona, USA
    Oh, I went through that - total lack of fear in any social situation. I remember doing a gut check before telling some important people about mistakes they were making. No reaction, so I went ahead. Oh, dear! Everything was so messed up at that point, I can't even tell you what was wrong. Too late to get into it. Keep that supervisor brain function, the thinking aspect, in control of your life - don't go by what you feel right now. Irritability - another symptom with many causes, including low B6 (P5P). What tests did you order?
     
  17. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    Thanks for the reply and info!

    I do have insurance now - but just paid out of pocket for the following tests through Amy Yasko (if it will stop the ship from sinking, I will gladly dump all the treasure (scraps) overboard):

    Hair Elements
    Methylation Profile
    Urine Toxic & Essential Elements
    Urine Amino Acids

    I can't mail them out until Monday and then may not get results for another two weeks.

    I am not a vegan and I eat plenty of meat. I actually did take (1) B6 pill (I forget exactly what dose, but it was the smallest I could find). It made me feel even more social / very sleepy but only for a few hours and the effects weren't permanent, unlike the others I listed. Also have been on Vitamin D for over a year (before problem started) and Magnesium for the past few weeks (but didn't notice any effects so didn't mention).

    This definitely doesn't feel like a normal development to me and I still feel some sort of a "block" but maybe there was some existing problem that was just brought out by the supplements?

    I may start the MB12 again in a smaller dose after these tests and also take the B-multi as you suggested. If there were a heavy metal issue, would taking the MB12 potentially make it worse or would it help with that?

    The first day when I take methylfolate and B12 I feel a little anxious but only for the first day - and then everything seems to crash. What exactly is methylation supposed to feel like when it is done right?

    I'l let you know as soon as I get the test results.

    Thanks!
     
  18. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,204
    Likes:
    702
    Arizona, USA
    I would hold off adding/changing anything until you get the test results. I have not felt the "neural brightening" that Freddd describes, what one person explained was like being the kid who wants to go off and solve math problems. But what you are describing (worse, not better) is not a good thing. On the whole you should feel better, not worse.

    I'm so glad that you are getting tested. I am not so familiar with Yasko's tests, but it will be interesting to see what they come up with. If you post them and I don't respond (as I get into heads-down mode on my job, sometimes for weeks), then PM me to go look, OK? Thanks!
     
  19. useraccount2014

    useraccount2014

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    3
    MRI came back "normal" still waiting on other tests.
     
  20. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

    Messages:
    811
    Likes:
    2,947
    Powassan, Ontario
    @useraccount2014
    We all try to compartmentalize our illnesses. You know, this is a methylation problem - or that's a heavy metal problem and while this is useful to help us organize our thoughts and channel our research, that is not how it works. We are not a 3 course meal, we are a stew.

    There is such a huge overlap in symptoms between metal and methylation and we have people camped here and others over on the mercury sites who have totally different rationales for the same symtpoms and responses. Metal messes with methylation and methylation messes with detox. Together they create a vicious cycle.

    People without methylation issues will notice little, if anything, when they take our supplements. Especially cyanocobalamin which is a small gun.Heavy metal toxicity should be considered because you have methylation problems. A healthy methylation system is needed to remove things like mercury.

    Against mercury being a big factor is that you have had limited exposure due to your age and not having amalgam fillings. Consider testing. You can have a Challenge Test but be careful - I thought that I was having a stroke, I had so much mercury on board. The Hair test through Doctors Data is kind of the gold standard. It needs to be interpretted and if you take it to yahoo's Frequent Dose Chelation group my brother, Brian will help you with that.

    The symptom of "all-low-monoamine" depression is not uncommon. It is more the "world has lost it's colour, I've lost interest in my hobbies and I don't get as much enjoyment from my social life" as opposed to "I want to throw myself under the bus". This is why people with amalgams are more apt to smoke - nicotine increases neurotransmitters.

    Firing up methylation will help, perhaps targeted amino acid therapy, and you can also consider meds that increase dopamine/norepinephrine - bupropion, for example.

    Start 'low and slow' with the methylation supplements. Most start the B12 first. There will often be some degree of start up symptoms - sometimes called "detox" . This passes in a week or so for most of us.

    I like what @Critterina offered you interms of advice and follow-up.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page