1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Part 2: Brain Cells Making us Sick? Messed up microglia could be driving symptoms
Simon McGrath looks at theories that microglia, the brain's immune cells, might be overactive and driving the symptoms of ME/CFS and fibromyalgia.
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  1. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Is it advantageous to take lactoferrin at the same time as iron or doesn't it really matter?
    heapsreal likes this.
  2. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    25-50 mg r5p in addition to whatever normal b2 you take should be fine. You have to play with it and see what works for you. I have a high protein diet but have had for years. Only when I added in B2 and especially R5p did the ferritin come out of the <50 range to where it is now.
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Lactoferrin is a good idea when taking supplemental iron. I suggest though beef liver pills are far better than ferrous sulfate or the other forms as they have the bioavailable heme form. The other forms are asking for it imo with respect to gut flora. The lactoferrin helps to sequester iron for your own purpose as oppose to gut microbes.

    Btw Branston ... a urine measurement is not as indicative as plasma one for long term trends. The urine ones can show issues due to genetic disorders and mineral insufficiencies but the plasma ones tell you more about the long term activity. There are exceptions of course. You can read up for instance on Metametrix's UAA and serum AA tests and how they lead to different interpretations.
  4. Branston

    Branston

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    I had actually been wondering about doing the Plasma Amino Acids from Doctors Data as a follow up, rather than the UAA and had it on my Do-List to check it all out and cost it...... so thanks for the prompt !
  5. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi dbitka

    I do understand the heme iron food sources are best but what are your thoughts about iron bisglycinate? I heard it's gentler on the gut as far as stomach distress from taking it, but does gentler on the stomach equate to more of it being absorbed in the system, or does the bisglycinate just act more like a buffer taking away the stomach discomfort?
    heapsreal likes this.
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Iron bisglycinate was still hard on my stomach. Only heme iron was ok and to be honest I find with r5p supplementation I just need to eat beef.
  7. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I hear what you're saying on the R5P, but anytime I have taken any extra regular B2 or R5P it makes my depression worse. Maybe I can try a real small dose to see what that will do.
    heapsreal likes this.
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    If it has a nasty effect then by all means don't force the b2. Wonder why it makes your depression worse. Something else is up.
  9. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I too would like to know why. From what I understand, B2 is needed for MAO production. Now whether that was the cause and effect I got from B2, I really don't know. It wasn't an immediate effect either. The longer I took it the worse I felt, but still, I never took it for very long. I'd say probably 3 weeks tops. That was back when Dog Person was on here and B2 was quite the craze back then. May have worked for some people but it wasn't for me.
    heapsreal likes this.
  10. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Depression from b2 means something odd. Irritability, anger, too much energy, anxiety... yeah sure but depression ? You need b2 for the krebs cycle. I don't know about a craze. What doses were having this effect?

    Edit: since r5p is a rate limiting cofactor for the MTHFR enzyme could somehow increased methylation be causing depression?
  11. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Rand56

    Rich used to say that a high B2:B6 ratio could worsen depression. So you might try equal amounts of both.
    Rand56 likes this.
  12. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Be forewarned if you take say 100 b2 as riboflavin and 100 b6 as p5p you won't get an equal ratio in the body due to different absorption mechanics.
  13. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I'll have to make a clarification here for you. I do not have "typical" MDD. It's more of anhedonia/dysthymia. So when I say I felt more depressed from extra B2 it did not give me "typical" depressive symptoms with the irritability and high anxiety. I know the difference. I DID have typical MDD about 20 years ago. The extra B2 made me even more fatigued and when this happens to me, there is even less air in my balloon <body> so to speak which worsens my depression.
    heapsreal likes this.
  14. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Understood. I would still wonder if its impact on MTHF production is the key reason for your reaction. What sort of methylation support do you do now? The reason I ask is being on methylation support with zero intake of b2 except maybe tiny bits in food is asking for a build up of 5,10 methyleneTHF in the folate cycle.
  15. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Yikes. I heard that rich said that folks with high 5, 10 methylene THF are more prone to cancer.
  16. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    This was awhile ago so I can't even recall if I was doing any methylation supps at the time? My best guess is, I don't think I was. I have done the methylation supps before and it doesn't do much for me at all, even trialed Deplin sized doses for awhile...15mg's of methylfolate which didn't do squat for me. There is a possibility I could have some degree of hypothyroidism which I'm going to get tested for soon on my own since I have no health insurance.

    I have a similar reaction just taking B-Complex pills so who knows, maybe it's the B2 in them and maybe the formula's B2 to B6 ratio is maybe not in balance for my body chemistry.

    Is there any condition that someone could have that would make them have too much MAO in their system. I even tried Moclobemide for awhile...even went as high as 600 mg's of it per day and it wasn't getting at it. Although from the reviews I have read, there are questions about it's true effectiveness as an MAOI. Did Wellbutrin before and I initially thought it was going to be the right med for me, it did help "some" but I could not handle the bad insomnia I got from it and since it only helped some, I did not want to just drug myself more by taking something else just to knock me out to get some sleep so I finally weaned off of it. I have some Reboxetine on order so I'm going to give that a whirl.
  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    If Deplin size doses of methylfolate and I assume sufficient methyl b12 did nothing for you then I suspect there is something else going on if you have health problems.
    Rand56 likes this.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dbkita,

    Let's keep in mind that for those with the general CFS/FMS symptoms with anxiety things that turn up the Krebs cycle, specifically AdoCbl and LCF causes the irritability, anger, anxiety depression related to the rising and falling carnitine with depression at the far end and the anxiety and such have transformed into the depression. They are not there at the same time. In at least some people without the anxiety characteristic, when the deficiency starts hitting the brain, irritability increases in a GENERAL WAY. Then if AdoCbl is present in the CSF at too high a ratio to MeCbl,, irritability goes high in people not otherwise inclined in that directions. All sorts of things can give the feeling of depression. I found that while I had "depression" I didn't think in a depressed psychology way. I felt depressed and flat. Everything that helped energy also helped that depression; MeCbl, AdoCbl, LCF, SAM-e, zinc, l-Methylfolate were the big ones. I had in the first hour of the MeCbl, the "lights turned on". I also, in the middle of a conversation on the phone, had a change in neurological state and said "Oh, I could be happy now". That was a lifelong depression lifting off. It was mind blowing quick, less than 1 hour. After that it was incremental as I added other things.

    We also know there is some relationship with serotonin but probably not as quickly as MeCbl can take effect though I don't know hopw long that would take.

    So, B2 could fit in somewhere in all that. I have never had any noticeable effect of B1, B2 or B3 despite trying different ratios etc with individual items so I have no first hand experience in any of these.

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