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Metabolic profiling indicates impaired pyruvate dehydrogenase function in myalgic encephalopathy/CFS (Fluge et al., 2016)

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Thanks I'll look into it. Haukeland is aware that some say they improve drastically after alcohol intake. As far as I know they are working on some gene analysis' with regards to this in the lab.


Mechanisms of alcohol-induced suppression of B-cell response.


I was noticed of this, but it doesn't seem to explain why I feel better within an hour or two. It think it has something to do with FMD...

@Murph, how much l-arginine did you take? Did you combine it with citrulline?

Near the start of my cfs....I was always fine on a Sunday and Monday after drinking Fri and sat. So much so I was able to run 10mile on a Monday.
From Tuesday lunchtime like clockwork I would crash right on cue.
This cycle continued for years until full blown cfs.
Alcohol is an empty carb ? Highly calorific but low in sugar. Possible it's an alternative cell fuel source like fats or aminos?
 

Owl42

Psychedelic bird
Messages
53
Location
Mexico
As you have been talking about mTOR and mTOR modulators I would love to bring your attention to the endocannabinoid system (that I think was found to be affected too in Naviaux's paper) Modulation of the endocannabinoid system (ECS) is one of the things that have helped me the most for some years and I think it still helps many people.

ECS is implied in fat metabolism, cell signalling and many other interesting thigs for MECFS.

I'll link you to 2 researchs:

This one goes deep into explaining the relationship of mTOR and ECS allong with many other things you'll understand much better than me (I'm in a terrible cognitive state):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4471876/

And this one talks about the relationship of ECS with glucose, aminoacids and fatty acids metabolism:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026415

I hope this can guide some of you into a wider picture of the disease mechanics.
 

Sing

Senior Member
Messages
1,782
Location
New England
Following on from comments about alcohol above, I've had some thoughts about why I have a problem with it.

I feel okay sometimes drinking it but afterwards it gives me PEM, just like exercise, and with about the same time delay. Furthermore, the problems seemed to multiple: Alcohol+activity is especially bad for me, even with a day of rest in the middle. At one point I developed the following theory (which I wrote up at the time and have copied below):

Everything that made me get PEM was also a known cause of vasodilation: alcohol, stress and exercise. This also served to back-up my fear of hot water - I have a vivid memory of a relaxing onsen that, to my utter surprise, made me go straight to PEM town.

I began to believe what was happening was my veins were getting baggy and saggy from vasodilation, then, presumably, not springing back. In response, my immune system was calling in a full shut down in a desperate attempt to prevent me doing more exercise, and to maintain homeostasis. It was a simple theory but one that explained everything I was feeling.

In that context, I was excited to hear about Fluge and Mella's nitric oxide patent. But I came away disappointed. They patented something that *causes* vasodilation. That would be no good to me, I concluded.

Time passed. I tried eating different things. Saw various medical professionals. Added and subtracted supplements.

Eventually I came back to the topic and began doing yet more research on vasodilation and vasconstriction. There has been rather a large amount written about CFS and nitric oxide (NO).

What slowly became clear to me was that endothelial cells, in charge of regulating vasoconstriction and vasodilation, release nitric oxide in response to feeling stress in the blood vessel. As blood flow speeds up turbulence increases, and in response they release NO to relax the blood vessel.

Or at least they should.

I began to wonder: what would happen if in my body, the ability of these cells to react was for some reason broken? What if I was never getting actual vasodilation in response to these theoretically vasodilatory activities like exercise? What if my veins were never getting loose and relaxed at all?

How would the endothelium react if it tried to make and release NO in response to the stress, and still couldn't make the stress go away? The question may be important, because endothelial cells are a major part of the immune system, and play a role in regulating the metabolism.


If they feel constant stress that they can't alleviate, might they trigger an immune response? Could they even send signalling molecules that trigger a hypometabolic state? There is not yet evidence that they do... But no evidence that they couldn't, either... The body uses arginine to make NO. Naviaux found arginine levels were increased in the bodies of CFS patients compared to controls. Perhaps a compensatory mechanism? It was not clear.

--

Anyway, I tried taking arginine to see if I could make more NO and solve my problems. Didn't seem to do anything much. The above is speculation based on snippets of evidence really, so I'm not too surprised.

I'm interested in hearing whether other people experience 'problems with alcohol' in the same way, i.e. as a direct cause of PEM.

I expect there is a good explanation @Murph , but first I want to say I am impressed with your attempt at understanding and then trying to apply it and experiment with a possible treatment--arginine in this case. I do this kind of process too--many of us do--acting as our own doctors and researchers since we mostly haven't had this kind of help. And sometimes we in the patient realm do figure our useful drugs, supplements or remedies, and then try to share our information.

But on to a more specific comment. Maybe there are additional steps biochemically and alternate pathways to achieve a needed end, such as in the elaborate charts we see in Fluge and Mella's study. And the problem turns out to be in some little step in the metabolic pathway that isn't the obvious one, or one yet well known.

When I think of dilation and contraction of blood vessels, I think of those adrenal hormones: adrenaline, cortisol and fludrocortisone. Maybe a few timely molecules of one of these regulatory hormones are needed for the process, and we don't have them available to do the job?

We need the detailed look at these metabolic pathways that good research can provide to find out just exactly where our systems are falling short and then struggling to re-balance the system with back up processes. I am thrilled that Fluge and Melba and others are on to this work, but of course I am as eager and impatient as the rest of us!
 

AndyPR

Senior Member
Messages
2,516
Location
Guiding the lifeboats to safer waters.
Can anybody volunteer an opinion on whether stored samples in this study would be any worse than freshly drawn samples, as in could it potentially have any effect on the results? I believe that the samples from patients with ME/CFS were drawn late 2014 in to 2015 (as detailed in the paper), with analysis occurring, I would assume, mid to late 2015, so there is a period of storage in some way (my assumption being they are frozen but I know nothing of lab techniques).

Given the number of samples, I can see, for efficiencies sake that taking all samples and then analysing them makes far more sense than taking a sample, analysing that sample, then taking another sample, analysing that one etc etc, but would the storage time and method (which isn't detailed in the paper) be likely to change anything? My assumption would be that, generally, it's not known to but I'm just curious as to anybody else's opinion.
 

Sing

Senior Member
Messages
1,782
Location
New England
@Sing what are you experimenting with Sing?
Thank you for asking. I am not experimenting with anything right now, though over the years have put together a good set of prescription drugs and supplements to keep me going as well as may be possible.

But I was interested to see that in the metabolic pathway in Fluge and Mella's study, that two amino acids which become problematically low for women--not men--are tyrosine and tryptophan. I have found both beneficial for years. I take the tyrosine in the am with no food as it does not compete well with it (gets immediately converted to something else). I started this on an inside tip from a national expert on depression, to help with depression/Seasonal Affective Disorder, and found it worked like a charm. So I take 500 mg. Then at the other end of the day, as many of us probably do, I take 500 mg tryptophan to help with sleep mainly but also pain. Maybe I take another one earlier just for the pain. And it helps. I take other things but those are two amino acids which have helped me that I was interested to see are on the list of elements which Fluge and Mella found to be too low in their female subjects with ME/CFS.
 

eljefe19

Senior Member
Messages
483
@Sing Oh ok. I'm male and my tryptophan is high. Tyrosine is normal. A number of my aminos are high. Fits with the idea that in males muscle mass is used instead of aminos like in females. I am very interested in supplementation and would love to know what you've found that's not gender specific.
 

Sing

Senior Member
Messages
1,782
Location
New England
@Sing Oh ok. I'm male and my tryptophan is high. Tyrosine is normal. A number of my aminos are high. Fits with the idea that in males muscle mass is used instead of aminos like in females. I am very interested in supplementation and would love to know what you've found that's not gender specific.

I will pm you on this. This thread is already going in several different directions and I don't want to impose my particular list on everyone.
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
@nandixon

"
  1. Ethanol fermentation
    Yeast and other anaerobic microorganisms convert glucose to ethanol and CO2 rather than pyruvate. Pyruvate is first converted to acetaldehyde by enzyme pyruvate decarboxylase in the presence of Thiamine pyrophosphate and Mg++. Carbon-dioxide is released during this reaction. Acetaldehyde is then converted to ethanol by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase. NADH is oxidized to NAD+ during this reaction."
Does this mean anything?? I have no clue about this. I saw saw alcohol and pyruvate mentioned in the same article. Perhaps my body is able to use use the energy available in ethanol in some strange way?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_glycolysis

This is a video about alcohol fermentation: http://study.com/academy/lesson/alcohol-fermentation-definition-equation-process.html

A study:
Ethanol and normobaric oxygen: novel approach in modulating pyruvate dehydrogenase complex after severe transient and permanent ischemic stroke.
 
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Murph

:)
Messages
1,799
@Murph

Check out @Snow Leopard's post above that gives several references for the role of S1P in endothelial function. For example, from the first reference it says:

Impaired S1P signaling might fit for what you're describing.

Thanks!

Makes sense that endothelial signalling is awry (in me at least)

I've done some reading on mTor and S1P and their roles make them key suspects in this disease. The fact they depend on ceramides- (the main thing in short supply according to Naviaux) really starts ringing alarm bells. Furthermore I found a link that I don't believe's been shared here yet.

Regulation of Immune Responses by mTOR

"... mTOR appears to function as a central node in a signaling cascade that directs the integration of diverse environmental inputs in the immune microenvironment. Furthermore, in light of the ability of mTOR activation to regulate metabolism, this kinase provides a critical link between metabolic demands and cellular function. mTOR plays a role in regulating diverse immune cells, including neutrophils, mast cells, natural killer cells, γδ T cells, macrophages, dendritic cells (DCs), T cells, and B cells."

If you're looking for an metabolism-Immune-B Cell nexus that could be indicated by low ceramides, this is one. (Of course, I'm not a boichemist, maybe such nexuses are a dime a dozen.)
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Does this simply mean anything that activates CB1 increases ceramides?
Probably, but agonists quickly lead to desensitization and diminishing returns. I would rather see something that upregulates cannabinoid receptors. Perhaps this is why some are helped by LDN?
 

paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
I don't know if you have already observed in some previous post that a metabolic alteration similar to the one depicted by Fluge and colleagues in ME/CFS, has been described in mice infected with influenza A virus, during the first 7 days of infection (Yamane K et al. 2014). In that study they found a decrease in PDH activity, a depletion of ATP in tissues, and an increase in PDK4 expression.

As antibodies are not produced during the first week after an infection, this PDH disfunction is due to other factors than autoantibodies.
 
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paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
@paolo If you want to say any more about this, I would be very interested.

In this study: (Yamane K et al. 2014), they infected mice with influenza A virus, then studied pyruvate dehydrogenase function during seven days, in several tissues (the animals were sacrificed). As you can see in the following picture, PDH activity goes down as the time passes, in all tissues examined with the exception of the brain. At the same time, there is a depletion of ATP in all tissues, again with the exception of the brain. This part of the experiment is similar to the first part of the study by Fluge and Mella, and we have the same result: a depleted energy state associated with a disfunction in pyruvate dehydrogenase.

upload_2017-1-15_23-46-54.png


Then they wondered if the reason for the lack of PDH activity could be an over expression of pyruvate dehydrogenase kinases. And they found an over expression of PDK4 (while the other three isoforms are normal), as you can see in the follwing picture.

upload_2017-1-15_23-53-50.png


This is also similar to the second part of the study by Fluge and Mella, where they find over expression of PDK1,2 and 4.

So we have that, during the first week after infection by influenza A virus, the ATP level declines within tissues, PDK has a loss of activity and there is an increse of the expression of PDK. This is a metabolic disfunction similar to the one described by Fluge and Mella. And it is likely induced by the early immune response (innate immunity) according to the mechanism proposed by the authors in the following picture:

upload_2017-1-15_23-58-20.png


What is of interest here is that after 7 days from the infection we still don't have any antibody, so the metabolic disfunction found by Fluge and Mella in ME patients might be due to some mechanism other than autoantibodies. The reason why some patients get better after rituximab could be linked to the acivity of B cells as antigen presenting cells, or cytokines producers, or the ability of B cells to release mitochondrial DNA (just as mast cells do). Mitochondrial DNA is highly atcive as inducer of inflammatory immune response.

In this study they also tested diisopropylamine dichloroacetate (DADA) as a possible treatment for the influenza induced metabolic dysfunction, and they found that this molecule (which is a PDK4 inhibitor) effectively reverses the loss of PDH activity and the ATP level in tissues.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
I don't know if you have already observed in some previous post that a metabolic alteration similar to the one depicted by Fluge and colleagues in ME/CFS, has been described in mice infected with influenza A virus, during the first 7 days of infection (Yamane K et al. 2014). In that study they found a decrease in PDH activity, a depletion of ATP in tissues, and an increase in PDK4 expression.

As antibodies are not produced during the first week after an infection, this PDH disfunction is due to other factors than autoantibodies.

That is a very interesting study, paolo, especially as it shows that rectifying the down-regulated pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) using dichloroacetate helps fight off the influenzavirus infection. This perhaps suggests that down-regulating the energy metabolism by means of inhibiting PDH may be an immune evasion tactic mounted by influenzavirus to increase its virulence, rather than an adaptive response by the body to limit the infection.



Note that diisopropylamine dichloroacetate (DADA) has a carcinogenicity question mark next to it, whereas sodium dichloroacetate (the one usually found for sale online) apparently does not.