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Mental Illness Or Methylation Mutation?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by arx, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    I am sure most of you know about methylation and how mental disorders can be related to it.

    Here's something which was shared by the MTHFR support page on facebook. Useful or not, I think the article should be shared here.

    Quoting from
    http://metabolichealing.com/michael-s-blog/mental-illness-or-methylation-mutation/
    --------------------------

    Mental Illness Or Methylation Mutation?
    by Michael McEvoy 26/08/2012 7:22pm | 7 comments​

    [​IMG]
    photo: smokedsalmon
    Suppose you walked into your doctor's office and he told you: "you look like you have cancer. We need to be put you on chemotherapy medications immediately." "What? How are you so sure, did you run any tests?", you ask. "No" replies the doctor, "you just look like you have cancer".
    As insane as this situation appears, this is an example of how a diagnosis is made in conventional psychiatry. Despite the enormous amount of psychiatric medications prescribed annually, almost all diagnoses is made solely on a behavioral basis. No physiological testing is conducted, no neurotransmitter analysis, no blood, no urine analysis, no biochemical analysis. Zero. And despite this radical departure from scientific inquiry, psychiatrists are legally allowed to prescribe brain altering chemicals, most of which change how the brain functions and creates dangerous chemical dependency.
    More frightening is that psychiatrists may not be sure of what psychiatric medications are actually doing in the brain and body, let alone what the combined effect of multiple medications may be. As of 2011, an estimated 1 in 10 Americans were taking anti-depressant medications. Studies indicate that antidepressant medications double the risk of suicidal behavior in young adults. Many types of psychotropic drugs are linked to violent behavior, and it has been well known that many mass murderers were taking SSRI medications.
    22% of Americans suffer from a so called "mental disorder" of some kind. This can include: depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, anxiety, as well as "behavioral disorders" such as attention deficit and OCD. There are now other ambiguous mental disorder labels such as "borderline personality disorder." Again, none of these disorders are diagnosed through any scientific, biochemical means. They are diagnosed through subjective, behavioral symptoms alone.
    The US government has invested one trillion dollars in the "war on drugs" since the early 1970's. And yet the most chemically and physically addictive, (not to mention most profitable drugs) are available legally by psychiatrists. And one needs no biochemical testing done to be prescribed these drugs.
    Groundbreaking Research That Will Change Mental & Behavioral Health

    Epigenetics is the study of how the environment influences gene expression. Environment can be anything from diet, nutrient deficiencies, toxicity and the impact of physical trauma and stress on the how your genes are expressed. In recent years, there have been emerging studies that definitively link epigenetic changes in gene expression with schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder. This means that your genes do not rule you, as much as your diet, lifestyle, toxicity-related factors and stress may rule how your genes express mental illness (as well as huge groups of other disease processes).
    One study in particular was conducted on 22 pairs of identical twins. Identical twins have identical DNA. However one twin among each pair expressed bi-polar or schizophrenia, and the other did not. Researchers investigated why this was the case, despite having identical DNA. In the mentally ill twin, researchers found significant changes in how certain genes were methylated. In some cases, there were significant over and undermethylation of certain genes that were present, due to epigenetic altercations.
    This means that some type of environmental influence is responsible for causing mental illness in these identical twins.
    Methylation

    Methylation is a chemical process that occurs in every cell of the body. Methylation is essential for many critical functions such as DNA and RNA synthesis and expression, glutathione conjugation and synthesis, synthesis of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, serotonin, GABA. Proper methylation is also essential for immune regulation, including viral inhibition.
    The implications with improper methylation is now being seen as causative triggers in several groups of disease processes, such as neurological inflammatory diseases likeparkinson's, alzheimer's and autism. Autoimmune diseases such as MS (multiple sclerosis) lupus, and RA (rheumatoid arthritis) are strongly associated with epigenetic methylation mutations. For nearly 30 years, it has been known that cancer involves over and undermethylation.
    Mental Illness: Abnormal Methylation Has Been Seen For Decades

    Prior to all of the recent discoveries with methylation, genetics and epigenetics, researchers have known for decades that mental illness invovled, or was caused by problems in methylation and the "one carbon cycles". Many of these researchers were, and still are reversing the symptoms of mental illness by providing the missing nutrient substrates in methylation cycles.
    For decades a number of pioneering researchers have been studying the biochemical activity in mental illness. The early work of Abram Hoffer, MD, PhD provided the essential framework for the role of nutrients in brain biochemistry. Nutrients after all are the primary biochemical substrates for all biochemical activity, including neurotransmitter synthesis.
    The research and work of Carl Pfeiffer, MD, PhD led to innovative and very effective nutrient therapies for mental illness. Two of Pfeiffer's significant contributions were identifying the role of pyrrole disorder and copper toxicity in certain mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia. Dr. Pfeiffer compiled a database of more than 20,000 schizophrenics and was the first to categorize the mental illness in terms of individual "biotypes".
    Over his extensive career, William Walsh, PhD conducted research on more than 30,000 patients of mental health and behavioral disorders and conducted several million biochemical tests. Dr. Walsh has expanded upon the earlier work of Pfeiffer and Hoffer, and has launched the biochemistry of mental illness into new arenas, thanks in part to recent discoveries and advances in genetics and epigenetics.
    Dr. Walsh has documented that the urine and blood chemistry of mentally ill patient populations are strikingly different than non-mentally ill subjects. Furthermore, he has identified a number of biochemical imbalances in various mental illnesses and behavioral disabilities.
    Amy Yasko, PhD has been leading the charge in autism research, nutrigenomics and methylation for many years. Her pioneering work has led to the development of highly integrative and individualized nutritional therapies for autism spectrum, as well as for diseases involving neurological inflammation.
    Tying It All Together: Nutrient Power & Nutrigenomics

    There now exists ways to bypass specific gene mutations by supplying missing nutrient substrates, thereby restoring function to entire biochemical pathways. These include the biochemical pathways responsible for neurotransmitter synthesis.
    Biochemically speaking, the human body creates what it needs from nutrients and nutrient substrates in biochemical pathways. Without question, gene mutations caused by epigenetic factors (nutrient deficiencies, various toxicities, varying stressors) are now being recognized as primary factors in many disease processes, including mental illness. These gene mutations prevent certain nutrient substrates from being produced (or in some cases over-produced) in biochemical pathways such as in methylation, but also in pathways such as transsulfuration and acetylation.
    The study of how specific nutrients and nutrient substrates can be used to bypass mutated genes is called "nutrigenomics". The current and emerging science and clinical application of nutrigenomics, involves supplementing with missing biochemical nutrient substrates, as well as compensating for excesses of certain substrates. This is the future of medicine, and the future is already happening. Lives are being transformed.
    Clinical evidence of this is apparent in Dr. Yasko's work, as well as in the extensive work and research of Dr's Walsh and Pfeiffer over several decades. The emerging science of epigenetics is validating their work of previous decades, and is exapnding upon it rapidly, with new emerging discoveries.
    It is quite clear that extensive research into mental and behavioral health needs to move in the direction of DNA methylation, epigenetics, and gene-specific nutrient therapy. Will it?
    The profession of psychiatry has a choice of either adhering to the dogma of its widespread use of psychotropic medications, or it can acknowledge the emerging science of gene-specific nutrient therapy, epigenetics and nutrigenomics as being the safer, more scientific and more effective modality, not to mention less expensive. If psychiatry is to side with the former, then its adherence to dogmatism may be viewed in concert with its financial incentives. However, its choice to side with the latter, would allow the restoration of mental health to millions of people.
    Michael McEvoy has a private nutritional consulting practice. He works with clients nationally and internationally. Please contact him to learn more about his nutritional consulting services and programs.
    Sources:
    C Sugden (2006). One-Carbon Metabolism in Psychiatric Illness. Nutrition Research Reviews, 19, pp 117-136 doi: 10.1079/NRR2006119
    J Smythies (2012) The Role of Abnormalities Related to the One Carbon Cycle in Depression & Schizophrenia, Neuroscience & Medicine, 2012, 3, 101-106
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6329330
    http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/24/4786
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22426120?dopt=AbstractPlus
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17893979
    http://health.ucsd.edu/news/release...netics-alters-rheumatoid-arthritis-genes.aspx
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12200190
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19117641
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20375269
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1611.abstract
    Nutrient Power: Heal Your Biochemistry & Heal Your Brain, W. Walsh, PhD, 2012
    Mental & Elemental Nutrients, C. Pfeiffer, PhD, MD, 1975
    brenda, Snowdrop, Wayne and 4 others like this.
  2. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    If one researchers it, one will find that MTHFR polymorphism (which causes methylation issues) is responsible for some cases of schizophrenia and bipolar.

    My father developed schizophrenia in his 50s (which is rare, they also said other things about his schizophrenia were strange) and I have no doubt that it would be due to this polymorphism. (I have a couble copy of this polymorphism but my dad has refused to be tested to see if he carries just one gene of it or two). Ive read somewhere that people like my father could be being treated with folate etc but instead they are put onto strong anti-psychotics. Not just the psychs are doing a roaring trade keeping people in a mental disease state but also big pharma is making a lot of money out of it.
  3. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi taniaaust1,

    I think the MTHFR polymorphism is the most considered these days for research and testing purposes. I know there is http://mthfr.net/ and a lot of information is available there. It is good to know that in-depth analysis of the methylation cycle is taking place. I can only hope that medical scientists work enthusiastically with such polymorphisms and blocks in the methylation cycle.

    Dr. Ben Lynch of mthfr.net has a presentation on methylation. I hope it spreads some good knowledge. Here it is:




    I agree. When one learns all this, and the genetic tendencies to develop associated diseases, one can't help but be suspicious of big-pharma. The trust in the doctor and this industry is simply lost.I don't think most of the psychs are not even interested in things such as folate and b12. It will be good to see some doctors, especially psychiatrists and neurologists come up with protocols relating to methylation, like Yasko has.There must be SO MANY people who are being misdiagnosed, given anti-psychotics and made to spend their lives as zombies. I would also have been one of them,had I not taken the B12 route. My physical symptoms were not even heard by the psychiatrists,and were thought to be a creation of my mind.
    I really hope that something good can come out of this mess.
    ahmo, Lala, Merry and 1 other person like this.
  4. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Ive seen that before and printed all the info from his presentation. Its what made me seek up a specialist in MTHFR polymorphism who I see now (as my previous specialist thou he knew I had it and then got me tested to confirm , he wasnt treating it right eg had me on normal folate instead of active folate etc). Im only just now starting proper treatment for it.

    I highly suggest others who have the disorder to read the info or watch Dr Lynch's MTHFR presentation.
  5. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Great. Good luck, Tania. :)
  6. LucyS

    LucyS

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    Hi Tania,
    I'm just wondering who your MTHFR treating doctor is in South Australia?
    And are you able to share a little about what SNP you have and what treatment he has you on?
    Thanks, I'm in SA too!
  7. jimells

    jimells Senior Member

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    I hope to live to see the day when psychiatry is held in the same high regard as bloodletting is held today.
    AFCFS likes this.
  8. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    taniaaust1

    I just saw the supplements recommended by Dr. Ben in that video. They are:
    [​IMG]

    After reading this, it seems to me that the treatment is almost same as Freddd's protocol. Apart from NAC,Glutathione,etc. which he says cause folate deficiency and no benefit.
    Fred did a 10 person Glutathione trial , the symptoms experienced were B12 and Folate deficiency once again, as Glutathione binds to the active b12, forms Glutathionylcobalamin which is flushed out in the urine. Read more here: http://chriskresser.com/b12-deficiency-a-silent-epidemic-with-serious-consequences#comment-16718

    Fred himself has faced many issues with folate. He has described them in the Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency threads. Only one needs to focus more on Folate rather than considering B12 the main game, but I guess both are required for each other. Dosages might be different for a person with MTHFR and a non MTHFR person. But more or less,the supplements are the same(Apart from Glutathione and precursors!!)...
    One just needs to experiment and find the right mix for himself, which is the toughest part as the scientist who is experimenting on himself is himself sick.
    I hope Fred would shed a light on MTHFR whenever he reads this.
    ahmo and Crux like this.
  9. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Wow excellent thread!
  10. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Very good article - thanks for posting it here.

    I found information in Yasko's information that possibly explained my dad developing OCD at age 69. If you have mutations in the B12 methylation cycle genes (MTR and MTRR) and you have exposure to lead, you may develop OCD. I have single mutations on every single one of my MTR and MTRR genes, so chances are, my dad had at least some of those mutations. He also had massive lead exposure from his work in the printing industry. If I would have known (this was the early 90's), I could have had him supplement with B12 and chelate out the lead, vs. going on an SSRI + diazepam.

    A warning to anyone who is on a psych med and wants to get off - you need to taper off extremely slowly. I had the horrible experience of suffering "SSRI discontinuation syndrome". I tapered off over a month or so, and had 6 weeks of mild to moderate symptoms. Then I was apparently fine for 4 or 5 months, THEN the really horrible stuff started, and lasted for months until I threw every calming thing I could naturopathically at it, plus reinstated the medicine.

    Now that I'm stable, I'm tapering again, but this time it's going to take two years. I'm also working on a methylation protocol at the same time, so by the time I get off the med, I'll have all the right nutrients in place and won't need the med any more (plus also hopefully fixing my ME/CFS).
  11. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Wow,I didn't know the discontinuation syndrome lasts this long. For how long were you on SSRIs?
    I've also realized the need to taper things very slowly. I don't have experience with SSRIs but with benzos.

    Do you think these psych drugs interfere with the methylation protocol ?
    I've felt the need time and again to take a benzo for the anxiety and insomnia the effects of the protocol causes. But I've also read Fred mentioning to NOT take benzos on his protocol after adding adb12 and carnitine. If I'm right it was related to interference in dopamine caused by benzos and his protocol.
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Been on Zoloft since about 2001. So a good 10 years at least. Some people can go off them as quickly as they went on, but some people can't. You don't know until it hits you. Probably 99.9% of doctors, including psychiatrists, are not aware of this. There seems to be a concerted effort by the drug companies to hide that fact that this is happening to so many people. I even had a psychiatric practitioner tell me that there was no such thing as "discontinuation syndrome", (even though I was sitting there in front of her suffering from it) and there were "no studies" regarding it. There are, in fact, at least 100 studies going back to the early 1990s.

    Do psych drugs interfere with methylation? It's more like - does methylation interfere with psych drugs? Methylation may "interfere" by correcting the neurotransmitter deficiences/imbalances that cause the anxiety/depression that made you get on psych drugs in the first place. I haven't been able to get an answer from doctors if you should being both at the same time. But via muscle testing, it doesn't sound like the best idea for me at least. So I'm slowly ramping up methylation as I'm slowly tapering off the Zoloft.

    Also, if you go on methylation full tilt, and don't need the med anymore, then you may have to discontinue quickly, which is not a good idea.

    I'm not sure about the benzo/dopamine thing, but it's best to avoid them if you can. I suggest trying theanine or GABA (more or less the same thing), magnesium or other calming but non-addictive supplements. Kavinace, melatonin and Seditol might be helpful for sleep.
  13. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    That's quite sad to hear. Consider they are the ones putting us on those drugs, it's their duty to help us out taper them. The withdrawal and discontinuation syndromes are terrible.

    I understand what you're saying. But my point is, when I start the protocol(Fred's Active B12 Protocol), it is only then when I face awful startup symptoms like anxiety,rage,insomnia,intensified tingling,etc. that I need a benzo to support it. I understand that the methylation process is 'correcting' the neurotransmitter imbalances,but while it is doing so, it is quite irritating and unpleasant. In the name of healing, in reality it makes me much worse and I need something to depend upon,which are benzos. But benzos are not recommended. So I'm left stranded again,with no support whatsoever. I just want something to "support" the startup symptoms,so I can bear the protocol and go ahead with it. Even micro titrating things is provoking strong responses. But the problem is that whatever is available there to support the startup,is itself interfering with the process.

    Quoting Fred from :http://www.forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/hypersensitivity-identified.16104/#post-268225

    "As the damaged neurons are reactivated they are extremely irritable and there is an increase in symptoms. Tapering the benzos may be helpful for turning down the secondary low dopamine symptoms. "

    So you see, there is an increase in symptoms, and that is when you need support,but it's not recommended. Or maybe I have not understood the point Fred is making. What I understand is that the methylation and atp startup is trying to increase dopamine release and heal those damaged areas speculated in the limbic system, and benzos are trying to decrease the dopamine. Deadlock situation?

    I wonder if SSRIs work in a similar fashion..
    I know that it's not a good idea to take psych drugs with methylation, but it is the process of methylation and its effects on my body and mind that make me want to take the psych drugs. Good luck to you with tapering the Zoloft. I hope you are able to do it in a smooth manner.

    Thanks,I'll keep them in mind.
    Melatonin did not suit me. I've tried Gabapentin which also did not suit me. I've seen GABA available on iherb as a supplement. Any suggestions/experiences you would like to share on GABA and its dosage? And would it also interfere with the methylation process,like benzos?

    Thanks.
  14. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Try to have a look at this link and you can find clues to change the protocol in your favor


    Methylation and MTHFR Defects presented by Benjamin Lynch, ND
  15. caledonia

    caledonia

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    You might have some other SNPs that are causing this. For example, I am CBS+. Even though I have SNPs that require large amounts of methylcobalamin, even 50mcg causes a stressed/anxiety response. So, per Yasko, I'm treating the CBS SNP first, then I can tackle MTHFR and MTR/MTRR (folate and B12).

    If you have COMT mutations, then you can only tolerate a certain amount of methylcobalamin, otherwise you'll get mood swings. In that case, hydroxycobalamin would be a better choice (despite what Freddd says). If niacin is helpful to calm your reaction, this would be a clue that you're COMT+. Niacin will soak up methyl groups if you have too many.

    As Marlene is suggesting, you should watch Dr. Ben's video. It has lots of great information, including mental symptoms. I've watched it six times myself.

    Ultimately, you may need to get your methylation SNPs tested so you have a more clear pathway.

    GABA/Theanine dose - I was taking 2 theanines four times a day. My naturopath switched it to Pharma GABA 250. I only need 1/2 of a capsule of that to equal the 2 theanines.
  16. Aileen

    Aileen Senior Member

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    I'm just waiting on my 23andme test (literally, should be delivered anytime now) and this dialogue about benzos and ssri's has me thinking. I am off the ssri I was on at a low dose for years but ... I am still on low doses of several anti-seizure meds - gabapentin, lamictal and topomax. I am wondering if these may interfere with the methylation/yasko protocol as you are discussing, only perhaps with GABA?
  17. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Thanks caledonia
    Where all can one get snp's tested? i've just heard of yasko,23&me.
    are there any more places? i live in India
  18. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    I am wonderig about the same thing, I take LO and tryptophan and I got nasty reaction during methylation start up. I even did not know there are interactions with psych. drugs, though it is logical.
  19. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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  20. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Good point,Marlene.
    But I guess for anyone on the protocol, who has already been taking vitamins and minerals,eg. B6/P5P, his/her result will be masked because of the supplementation in the protocol and hence, those tests,which I presume are serum/urine tests, will already show high levels. The true reflection will only be found if one has not started any form of vitamin treatment.

    So I guess the only way to find out possibilities is by trial and error. That alone will be the diagnosis and the treatment, since the testswill be masked if one has been on a protocol.

    Are there any tests which give the true reflection WHILE a person is on the protocol? Those must be only the SNPs,right?

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