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Megadose B12 or folate and cancer link?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Beefsterq, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. Beefsterq

    Beefsterq

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    I take, and love, methyl b12 and adenosyl b12 and also 5-MTHF. I was recently warned by someone that taking too much can cause cancer. I did a small amount of research, basically googling "b12 cancer" and outside the first few saying it reduces quite a few cancers, I found:

    http://www.usingvitaminswisely.com/vitamin-b12-overdose.html

    Mainly this part:

    The link between high levels of B12 and cancer is easy to explain. Vitamin B12 stimulates cell division and it doesn’t distinguish between healthy and unhealthy cells. The excess vitamin B12 provides the extra energy needed by cancer cells.
    Troubling B12 cancer connections:

    I also found some study where smokers that took folic acid + b12 had higher incidences of Lung Cancer.

    Is there some concern with taking too much? How do I know if I'm taking too much? Was the problem with the folic acid study due to using folic acid vs MTHF?

    Anyone know how to quiet my fears?
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    You might want to include over-methylation in your research criteria. There is some concern about cancer and over-methylation. Are you taking high doses? Sorry, if you have said already.

    Sushi
  3. Beefsterq

    Beefsterq

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    That's my question :) If you're comparing me to ALS patients, then, no. But if I look at the RDA for B12, compared to my 1mg enzymatic therapy + my 2mg adenosyl-b12 + my 800mcg Solgar Metafolin daily, then PROBABLY :)
  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    You could also take the Health Diagnostics Methylation Panel to check your levels.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I think it's an unfortunate problem with many supplements. Enough is essential to healthy functioning, too much starts to create problems.

    I've just found out my copper levels may be far too low because my vitamin C intake is high. Ugh.

    I think the best we can do is to take just as much as is needed to try to normal out our levels, and be cautious about going overboard from there. Perhaps if you can't afford a full methylation panel, a urine methylmalonic acid test could help suggest whether you're getting enough B12 from the supplements you're taking (and if you are, maybe they could be reduced some)?

    Anything we do to mess with out body chemistry comes with a risk attached, whether it's high dose supplements, or overdoing it with certain foods, or taking prescription medications. It's all a balance of benefit vs risk. I will keep taking my B12 and folate. But if I get to a point where I can reduce them without losing functioning, then I may do that too. When I started this journey, I was giving my body anything I could get my hands on in case it helped. As I go, I am slowly beginning to see the value in taking a more minimal approach (in some ways. I won't say I don't still have a list of things to try ;)) .
    SOC likes this.
  6. pela

    pela

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    Do any fo these studies use active forms, such as methylcobalamin and methylfoate, or do they all refer to high doses of cynocobalamin and folic acid?
  7. ggingues

    ggingues $10 gift code at iHerb GAS343 of $40

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    What is a high intake of Vitamin C? I take 4 to 5grams a day, never really thought about copper. What are the side effects of not having enough copper in your system?

    GG
  8. Beefsterq

    Beefsterq

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    The particular Norwegian study I saw definitely used Folic Acid. It is not clear from the abstract what form of B12, but there are quite a few hits about Methyl-B12 reducing many cancers, and new forms of b12 consideration for cancer treatments, so you may be right that its using improper forms of these. I will keep looking.
  9. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    That would qualify as a high intake of C. This was the first site that came up when I tried to find a source for you. Not sure how credible it is, but the list of what copper does seems pretty accurate. It's involved in lots.

    ...Though I wouldn't muck with copper levels without getting yours checked out first. Too much is bad news too.
  10. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Y'all,
    It's true that B12 and folate are growth stimulants, and that cancer cells develop receptors for them.

    Since I would chose B12 regardless of the risks, because death by B12 deficiency, for me, would be far worse than any condition I could imagine, I see it as a positive growth stimulant, good.

    I read of a case of a man with pre-existing prostate cancer, who was then diagnosed with pernicious anemia. ( autoimmune B12 def.) The treatment with B12 increased his prostate cancer cells. The prostate gland is very high in zinc, potassium, and citrates.

    We know that with high dose B12, there is usually increased need for potassium. I believe that zinc levels may also be effected. ( Some people may need to supplement zinc-- my guess.) Zinc deficiency has been noted in some cases of BPH,and prostate cancer.

    B12 and folate deficiency have been noted in some cases of breast, colon,etc. cancers.

    I agree that there are risks with high dose supplements, and I have cancer in my family, as many here do, so I try to choose carefully, between the positive and negative growth stimulants. ( I consider sugar to be a negative growth stimulant, for one.)

    BTW, Curcumin,an extract from turmeric, and , EGCG, an extract from green tea, are showing well as preventives and treatments for numerous cancer types. ( Resveratrol too.)
  11. ggingues

    ggingues $10 gift code at iHerb GAS343 of $40

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    I wouldn't do extra copper without some guidance from my Dr. I have an order for a blood draw for other things, so I could ask him to add this, and he probably will. I want to have my CoQ10 levels checked again, make sure I am taking enough.

    GG
  12. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I didn't really figure you would. :) I mainly just wanted to include the caution in case other people read this sometime in the future.
    ggingues likes this.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Folic Acid is associated with cancer. Malfunctioning DNA replication from MeCbl and l-methylfolate deficiencies are suspected of causing multiple cancers. The is some peer reviewed research suggesting MeCbl has some anticancer properties. Folic acid can cause paradoxical folate deficiency and in causing acne, canker sores, angular cheilitis and IBS within a few days it is clear that it disrupts healthy cell formation. SO who knows. Unfortunately about 99% of writers (not here) assume folic acid is IT and that folic acid is synonymous with "folate" in their writing. A failure to make distinctions prevents anything useful from being said because it is inherently wrong. To say "folate" causes cancer is wrong. To say that "folic acid" somehow contributes to cancer a[pears to be correct. As HyCbl can demonstrate the same cell malformation properties in some people, like me and others with similar reports of acne from HyCbl, which is reversed with MeCbl as fast as it was caused by HyCbl. CyCbl and HyCbl over time cause partial methylation block and worsen it causing all sorts of misformed cells in many places in the body including cervix which can show up on a PAP test as "false positive" as these cells are abnormal and not yet cancer, if that is the progression.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Crux,

    Zinc is an important cofactor for AdoCbl to function against inflammation. My maternal grandfather had MS and B12 deficiency. My bio-mother had colon cancer. I had decades B12/folate deficiency problems and have Sub Acute Combined Degeneration and had colon polyps removed and am due for another colonoscopy. My 3 children all have some b12/folate problems but not as severe as me because it was caught early. Talk about genes. We also all need specifically LCF, not ALCAR. Could that be genetic?
  15. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd;
    The relationship of folate and cancer is so convoluted...researchers are still working on it. Cancers can occur with folate deficiency and excess, so it looks to me that an individual's metabolism is the main factor. While folic acid is so toxic to so many of us here, some folks don't seem to be negatively affected by it. (some may be unaware.)

    I've chosen to get the 23andme gene test to try and figure out what may have been the cause of my brother's and sister's young deaths, and nearly mine. I had figured it would be something glaring, but it seems to be a combination of many mutations. It can be difficult to sort through, and frustrating; it may only provide clues to what has gone wrong. It has helped me to understand some of the reasons my family had so many health problems.

    There are so many things that can go wrong with B12/ folate metabolism; from absorption, binding, transport, receptors,and intracellular metabolism...it's stunning to me. Reading about the genetic mutations that can interfere with these processes has shown me alot, but, not everything.

    We can learn about our tendencies, but still, we will need to experiment to find what is specific to our individuality.

    I would guess that in your and your family's case, there may be a mutation that interferes with carnitine formation and transport. This can be dangerous, even fatal. ( cardiac problems) The type of carnitine that you respond to best may have to do with the mechanics of the compound.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK84551/

    http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/07/amino-acids-for-super-humans-part-iv_17.html
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Crux,

    Convoluted is dead on.


    There are so many things that can go wrong with B12/ folate metabolism; from absorption, binding, transport, receptors,and intracellular metabolism...it's stunning to me

    I've spent 35 years chasing this thing down. I rethought it from the research going back into the late 30S AND 40S basically questioning EVERY assumption. The sublingual absorption gets through many of the assumptions, L-methylfolate gets past a bunch more, AdoCbl gets through another round and finally LCF. With those 4 items 95% of people selected for the symptoms of B12/folate deficiency have significant response. Another dozen items account for blockade about 5% of the time. The problem is that the permutations are massive, a multitude of pathways.

    I would guess that in your and your family's case, there may be a mutation that interferes with carnitine formation and transport. This can be dangerous, even fatal. ( cardiac problems) The type of carnitine that you respond to best may have to do with the mechanics of the compound.

    Ten years ago I was dying of congestive heart failure. The water started pouring off when I started the carnitine (last of the deadlock quartet) and as I lost 85 pounds of water in all, and my muscles rebuilt about 50 pounds worth.

    I suspect the carnitine problem is common. Amongst those about 90% have a big difference with LCF and none with ALCAR. The other 10% are the opposite.

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