The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Meat/Protein Issues

Discussion in 'Hypersensitivity and Intolerance' started by Tigger, Mar 23, 2017.

  1. Tigger

    Tigger

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    Hi all,

    I've had lifetime issues with anxiety and panic. I've had much success with methylation treatment but am still not where I'd like to be. I've narrowed down my reactions to protein, especially meat/eggs. Within an hour, I have raised panic/hyper-vigilance. I've tested this many times and can confirm.

    Any advice?
     
  2. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    Does this mean that mB12 is not the cause of the problem?
     
  3. Orla

    Orla Senior Member

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    Could you not just avoid meat and eggs for now and see how you get on? I think I have come across this issue before (not on an ME forum, somewhere where I came across people's anxiety decreasing when they gave up meat, but I can't remember the source). Unless you have a very restricted diet there should be no problem getting enough protein, if you are concerned about that. You might want to take B12 though as a precaution. It sounds like it could be worth your while doing a little trial. You can always stop if you feel worse on it.

    Just looked this up, so there might be an inflammation issue with meat ?
     
  4. Tigger

    Tigger

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    @Eastman Mb12 has both helped and caused issues in a wide variety of ways but has certainly been far more helpful than damaging. It is definitely not the cause of this problem. Too much of an increase too quickly in mb12 dosage certainly has caused related issues, but overall, no.

    @Orla Unfortunately, the issues seem to occur at all levels of protein intake so avoidance is not really possible. Limiting has certainly helped.

    My two hypothesis are that it could either be

    1.) B-vitamins, esp b2, being overly stressed as protein metabolism requires a hefty amount of the b's to work properly. Solution: Support with a high-quality b complex before each meal, followed by sublingual mb12.

    Or

    2.) Inability to handle the methyl donors found in protein, esp meat. I'm COMT and have had good success with supporting this SNP. Solution: Limit protein intake and further support COMT with magnesium, etc.

    I've also had issues with histamine that have pretty much all been solved by supporting methylation so I don't think that is necessarily related at this point (high levels of histamine can cause similar issues). I suppose ammonia could also play a role as I've had success with activated charcoal.
     
  5. Orla

    Orla Senior Member

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    Sorry, I thought the way the first post was written that you were still eating eggs and meat. You could always avoid the worst triggers as it might help in the long-run? I know of some people doing no animal products and no beans or pulses, so that would be a relatively low in protein diet. I would have thought this was risking going too low on protein but apparently it can be done (they would eat things like potatoes and/or sweet potatoes though, which are good for adequate protein once the calories are not too low). If you wanted to do that you could look into it, but it would maybe take some reading-up on it and some adjustment depending on how you eat now.

    I don't know if you use Chronometer?
    https://cronometer.com/ It is quite useful for tracking whether one might be at risk of being deficient in nutrients. I wouldn't get overly worried about being slightly high or low on most things, as most people are not going to eat exactly the same everyday, and there are standard deviations set into recommended nutrients to account for outliers and the like.

    I found it interesting to occassionally track what I was eating, but I don't do it often as it can be a bit annoying to have to weigh everything. I just used it to get a rough idea if I was on the right track. I think their fat intake is set too high so I adjusted that.

    I found myself when I was tracking what I was eating that it it was difficult or even impossible not to go over the protein intake for the day, even when I was only eating about 1,200 calories a day, which is less than I would normally eat. As far as I can remember this was even when I did not eat pulses (I would eat pulses regularly though). It surprised me a bit the amount of protein in foods like oatmeal. As it is the protein intake recommendations are set on the high-side as they were set to account for outliers (and at the time there was less awareness of the dangers of too much protein).

    Anyway you might have gone through all this already somewhere else on this board as I am sort of new here. Feel free to ignore what I am saying as I don't know your background and I am not a dietician.

    Edit: Sorry I don't know what has gone weird there with the blue.
     
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Eggs could be due to sulfur/thiols. Do you also react to onions, garlic etc?
    In this case, doing the CBS protocol, or simply limiting thiols and supplementing with molydenum could help.

    Meat I'm not quite sure about. I was thinking histamine or ammonia. You said you have histamine under control.

    In that case, the full Heartfixer CBS protocol could help as it addresses both ammonia and sulfur/thiol issues.

    I have info on the CBS protocol in my signature link. I did this protocol myself and it was helpful. My CBS pathway continues to function well several years later - I no longer even need molybdenum for maintenance.

    Note that mercury toxicity can cause CBS issues in the first place. I'm currently chelating out mercury with the Cutler frequent dose chelation protocol.
     
  7. Tigger

    Tigger

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    Thank you all for your responses.

    I have been undergoing Cutler's protocol with big reactions still so I'll continue with that and supporting methylation and hope for the best. It's interesting as I've had success with activated charcoal so it may actually be an ammonia issue.
     
  8. Silence

    Silence

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    I am very sensitive to proteins and meats as well. It causes me anxiety, ear ringing, headaches/migraines, agitation, dizziness, And just an overall increase in my brain inflammation symptoms. Are you also sensitive to glutamates and aspartate, cysteine, bone broths? I think the proteins are causing a worsening in my brain symptoms by causing a worsening in excitoxicity. Maybe ammonia has a part too. Do you have CFS?

    How is your gut?
     
  9. Tigger

    Tigger

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    @Silence I actually do react to glutamates, aspartate, cysteine and bone broths in a similar way. I would agree with the excitoxicity comment. What is the solution to this? I've had great success with mb12 and folate in regards to this but cannot seem to get consistent results or a reliable dosage/ratio for the life of me. I've been at this for almost 2 years and still cannot figure out a system that consistently works. I'm hoping it's a mercury/heavy metal situation and can get more reliable results once those are on their way out.

    I do have CFS but I certainly can't compare to what many of you go through on a day to day basis. In terms of energy and strength, I've had great success with Freddd's protocol.

    And my gut seems well from what I can tell. I eat fairly well, take a high-quality probiotic and do sea salt water cleanses occasionally. However, maybe the protein is somehow causing inflammation in my gut and therefore in my brain.
     
  10. Silence

    Silence

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    I Have not found a permanent solution, but have found things that can dampen the severity of these type of symptoms. The best drug I found to help was Low Dose Naltrexone, or benzos. But Benzos can be a rocky road to go down as they can cause dependence and withdrawal. Low dose naltrexone has relatively few side effects, but can cause a herx, and sometimes bad herx, but is cheap and effective.

    Other things like magnesium, skullcap, and just cutting down on protein might help. But LDN really helped me.
     
  11. Ryan88

    Ryan88

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    Hi Tigger, do all protein-rich foods give you the same reactions/sensations? Also do you have a "crash" afterwards (brain fog, stiff muscles, lethargic, etc)? I have a similar reaction when I eat meat, esp chicken/turkey etc with higher protein content as well as all protein powders, quinoa and the like. I've been researching/wondering if it has something to do with certain amino acids and how our body processes them (or doesn't). Will let you know if I find anything useful. I seem to be ok with eggs, but I also react to breads, beans, plus anything with added sugars (although it's a slightly different "hyper/anxious/energy....crash" with the sugars).
     
  12. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    I do have problems with animal protein, except for very fresh fish. I suspect it has to do with the histamine content of these foods. The longer the animal has been dead, the higher the histamine level in the meat.

    I can eat legumes (thankfully). But there are many other foods that I can't eat (that are not high in histamine). In general, rice is the only grain I can eat. I tolerate most vegetables (but am wary of nightshades). I can eat most fruits except for berries. (Here I suspect benzoates....people who have problems with histamine also have problems with benzoates). I eat rice and sweet potatoes and yams as my main starches.

    Best,
     
  13. Tigger

    Tigger

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    @Ryan88 @Timaca

    This seems like a simple explanation and is most likely the underlying reason yet it somehow slipped my mind - https://healinghistamine.com/wondering-why-you-react-to-everything-you-eat/. This would especially explain the protein/meat difficulties given that it takes (I'm assuming) quite a bit more of just about everything to digest. With that being said, supporting with folate and the active b12's has helped dramatically with initial digestion of most foods (including high histamine ones) but I seem to have issues later on after the food has digested. I also feel phenominal on days that I eat very little or nothing at all. This leads me to be believe that I may have a mast cell disorder and am currently trying out NeuroProtek. It's quite expensive and may take months to show and long-term positive effects but I'm hopeful.
     
    Timaca likes this.
  14. Ryan88

    Ryan88

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    @Tigger
    Glad you're finding some success with digestion, at least the initial part of it. I also feel much better on days when I don't eat much. I've done a low histamine diet in the past while working with my Naturopath, but it wasn't for very long. She was convinced that I have MCAD. I never was diagnosed officially, but a lot of the symptoms do fit. I've tried so many diets at this point I could start my own video series haha. We just keep shooting in the dark until we hit something. Keep us posted on any positive effects/breakthroughs with NeuroProtek.

    Best
    Ryan
     
  15. Tigger

    Tigger

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    @Ryan88
    Will do. What symptoms do you have to make you think you have MCAD?
     
  16. Ryan88

    Ryan88

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    Mostly stomach ache, digestion issues, headaches, flush, and almost constant congestion/mucous build up. I wouldn't consider those my main symptoms though, since most of them aren't daily but rather responses to eating the wrong foods etc. That's why I was skeptical. But like I said I've never been diagnosed one way or the other.

    Also just to be clear I'm talking about Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, not MCAD the genetic deficiency. I realized they shared the acronym when I googled "MCAD" ha.
     

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