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Meaning of low CD4 and CD19?

Discussion in 'Diagnostic Guidelines and Laboratory Testing' started by Timaca, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    My CD4 is 372 with a reference range of 410-1800.

    My CD19 is 66 with a reference range of 99-570.

    We believe I am battling various infectious pathogens, but HIV is not one of them.

    Thoughts as to the meaning of the low CD4 and low CD19?

    Thanks,
    Timaca
     
  2. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    are those the only NK cells that are affected?

    you should phone your doctor.
     
  3. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Yes, those were the only abnormal results. I've talked with my doctors. No explanations were offered.

    Best, Timaca
     
  4. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    Did they schedule an appointment or anything?

    I'm not qualified to interpret those results, but I googled them and there are some other things it looks like it could mean (other than HIV).

    best,
    Willowj
     
  5. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    (post above edited for clarity)
     
  6. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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  7. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    I see my doctors on a regular basis. I've talked with them recently on the phone and am having blood draws regularly to follow those labs. I see them again in October. They are not overly concerned, but I'm wondering what those values might indicate (other than an immune system that isn't working right). We know I have some infectious pathogens that I'm dealing with. I wonder if that is what is affecting those values. If you have links to what you googled, I'd appreciate it. I looked online too, but didn't find anything of note.

    Thanks Timaca
     
  8. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Did you get just those specific NK cells tested, or did you do a panel?
    I'd be curious to know what lab does it, too, if you don't mind.
    I've read elsewhere that mold illness has the effect of lowering those numbers, I think, but don't quote me.
     
  9. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    A "Lymphocyte Subset Pane 6l" was run. It was run at ARUP lab, but I've also had it run before at Quest and Labcorp. My other values are normal, but on the low end of the reference range.
     
  10. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Thanks, Timaca.
     
  11. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    I found this:
    "During HIV infection, antiviral therapy is often initiated when the absolute CD4 count drops below 500 cells/L. When the absolute CD4 count drops below 200 cells/L, therapeutic prophylaxis against PCP and other opportunistic infections may be initiated. When the absolute CD4 count drops below 100 cells/L, prophylaxis against Mycobacterium avium complex is recommended."

    E.T.A.: I know you said HIV wasn't in the picture, but could this indicate viral or antiviral activity?
     
  12. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    I just noticed something interesting.....I've had these labs run on and off since 2008. The only time the values were in the normal range was when I was on antibiotics. I was recently put on antibiotics again. I wonder if I will have normal test results again when I have have the labs run in July......

    Timaca
     
  13. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    The things I saw besides viral load in HIV (which would be analagous to our immune deficiency in ME/CFS) was lymphomas (and that was what concerned me, sorry!), but in that case there are other CD counts which are also low (so this shouldn't be a concern), and there would be other tests they could (and may have already) run to rule this out also.
    http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/cd4/faq.html#4

    Also sarcoidosis, but that also involves CD8 as well.
    Sarcoidosis is characterized by reddish bumps or patches on or under the skin

    The odd thing is that, if I'm reading the research correctly, there should be, in addition to CD4, low amounts of NK cells with other labels like like CD45, CD56, CD25, CD26, CD3, CD8... but I have not read of CD19 in any recent literature on ME/CFS (might be in the older literature, though, which I don't have handy). However, this is all a bit past my depth.
     
  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    elevated cd8 are common in herpes infection like ebv/cmv etc, my understanding of the lymphocyte subsets are that if elevated your body is mounting an attack on an infection, so is a sign of an ongoing infection. If lymphocytes are low, infection is still there but immune system is tiring or maybe post infection. cd56 are nk cells, i think they class cd8 and cd 4 etc as T cells not nk cells, so slightly different, i think.
     
  15. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Leela~ What is PCP?
    WillowJ~ Thanks for your post on sarcoidosis. I don't have many of those symptoms. My other CD cells are within the reference range, but just barely in most cases.

    I will be very interested to see if being on antibiotics affects these numbers when my labs are drawn again next month....

    Best, Timaca
     
  16. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Timaca~it's Pneumocystis Pneumonia, which is caused by a fungus.
     
  17. Tulip

    Tulip Guest

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    CD4 are t cell helpers not nk cells, a count of below 400 means your immune system is suppressed and needs help. A CD4 count below 400 is extremely common in patients with M.E.. Enteroviruses cause such a drop in levels, the enterovirus foundation recommends using proboost supplement to help elevate them, it is what HIV patients use. https://www.prohealth.com/shop/product.cfm/product__code/N0149/tab/FAQ

    This is actually one way I was diagnosed with M.E., my CD4 count amongst others was very low and I was put on gamma globulin injections (back in 1994). I can tell mine are really low now because I can not get rid of viral infections such as colds, staph infections etc and will go and get it re-checked next week!.

    From the enterovirus foundation facebook page:

    http://www.facebook.com/EVForg

    FACT: We all have T-cells which are there to provide defense for the immune system, also called CD4 cells. Once an HIV patients' count falls below 400, the illness is catagorized as full blown AIDS. What researchers are finding, HEV or human enterovirus infections are also causing CD4 counts to drop below 400, causing severe immune deficiencies thus leading to many other health related problems.
     
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Theres also a cd4/cd8 ratio on some tests which also is an indicator of immunosupression, i have had episodes where this ratio was low but my total cd4 and cd8 were elevated which means my immune system was activated. I have read a few things lately where a common finding in xmrv positive people is low nk function but also elevated cd8 T cells, so i also wonder if the cd8 elevation is from herpes viruses reactivating from supressed nk cells and immune system in general.

    Things like immunovir and cycloferon could possibly help with immune supression. My cfs doc also recommended herbs like astragalus as well.

    cheers!!!
     
  19. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Tulip~ Thanks for your response. I was put on Proboost, and it did not improve my test results. So, I am slowly weaning off it. I do have enteroviruses (Coxsackie B3 and B4). Oxymatrine has helped that, my antibody titers have dropped, and I've felt better. I did post on the EV Facebook page asking for a reference for the association between a low CD4 count and enteroviruses. I would think that as I cleared the enteroviruses (as I seem to be doing) that if they were causing my low CD4 count, that it would improve, and it hasn't.

    Interestingly enough, I don't get sick often at all. Even my doctor comments on that. Our whole city had a bad winter, and all I got was a slight sniffle and slightly swollen lymph glands for a couple of days. (Knock on wood that this continues.)

    One has AIDS when the CD4 count falls below 200 not 400. http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/cd4/test.html#what

    Heapsreal~ Thanks for your input as well.

    Best, Timaca
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There can be other reasons for low CD4. Being super fit and over-exercising is one of them: marathon runners often have very low CD4.

    Low CD4 counts can also be caused by various infections (and I believe in these cases the CD4 count often returns to normal within a year or two).

    See here: http://www.healtoronto.com/irwincd4.html


    I while ago, I was looking up some information on boosting CD4 cells for an acquaintance who has the Chinese "AIDS-like" Pathogen, which often results in low CD4. Here is the info I found:

    Supplements that increase the number of CD4 cells:

    Vitamin E
    Selenium
    L-Carnitine

    Ashwagandha herb
    Reishi mushroom
    Andrographis herb (Andrographispaniculata)

    Korean ginseng herb
    Golden Root herb (Rhodiola rosea)
    Neem herb (Azadirachta indica)

    Beta glucan (an extract from Saccharomyces cerevisiae)
    Astragalus (Astragalus membranaceus)
    Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra)

    Shatavari (Asparagus racemosus)
    Sulfasalazine (an anti-inflammatory drug) provides a powerful increase in CD4


    Supplements thatincreasethe activation of CD4 cells:

    Echinacea
    Siberian ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus)
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
    Rlman likes this.

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