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MEA website poll: Do you still drive a car with ME/CFS

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
I don't see what the significance of it being in heavy black type. The key word here is 'could' which occurs in each statement. It isn't an arbritary rule.

There is a similar rule that they 'could' crush your car if you don't renew your car tax, yet very often people forget to renew and the DVLA send you a letter and you go online or to the post office and renew it. The DVLA even have it on the system to backdate it as it happens all the time.

The list of symptoms and other statements about drugs backs this up, as potentially you could be prosecuted for driving with a cold or taking a hayfever tablet. The symptoms may well apply to many with ME/CFS but they are so broad as to cover just about anything, potentially.

The idea of everyone in this country who has one of these symptoms at some point, or at risk or developing one at some point, phoning up the DVLA to report it is laughable.

The actual spirit of the law is that you should never drive unless you are safe to do so, for whatever reason, and if you do so and then cause an accident then you could be prosecuted.

This does not mean anyone with ME/CFS can not drive safelyall or some of the time or that they have a legal responsibility to report their illness or symptoms to the DVLA. It isn't an issue because you just don't drive if you have symptoms that affect your ability to drive.

I really don't understand why the MEA want to portray the DVLA rules in an arbritary light. For that matter I dont understand why the MEA is majoring on such a minor issue (comparative to some of the issues our community faces) anyway?

I think we are starting to go round in circles here

So it's probably time to agree to disagree on what I feel is the main point - which is that legally, here in the UK, car drivers do have a duty to inform the DVLA if they have a health condition - medical or physical - or disability that is likely to last for more than three months and which might impair their ability to safely drive a car

That is what the law states

And this is what it states in the Driving License:

'You are required by law to inform Drivers Medical Branch, DVLA, Swansea SA99 1AT at once if you have any disability (either physical or medical condition) which is, or may become, likely to affect your fitness as a driver, unless you do not expect it to last more than three months.'

It is the responsibility of the driver to inform the DVLA.
It is the responsibility of doctors to advise patients that medical conditions (and drugs) may affect their ability to drive and for which conditions patients should inform the DVLA.


We are not making a major issue out of this - it is just another question in our monthly website poll. The only place where it seems to have become a big issue is on this discussion forum!

We decided to have a question on car driving and ME/CFS because this is a topic where we receive regular questions on both the DVLA and the insurance companies

And I know from these queries that a small but significant number of people believe that because ME/CFS is not listed as a specific condition by the DVLA, they can carry on driving and there is no requirement whatsover to inform either the DVLA or their insurance company

Which is clearly incorrect.......
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
Am I really the only person who has had to stop driving due to insufficient money? It makes me feel like a particularly disadvantaged, isolated member of a disadvantaged. isolated group. :(

I'm currently not driving due to ill health, but three years ago I had to stop driving when I could no longer afford to buy car insurance and my twenty-year-old truck with over 200,000 miles (purchased new) became too rusty to pass inspection. Since my only income at the time was food stamps, I was poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, which was happy to pay some agency $75 an hour to send round a case manager who drove me to the doctors and grocery.

Now that I'm living high on my "generous" disability benefit I no longer qualify for that help, so I'm in the same boat as far as transport goes. I can call my flaky neighbors and if they return my call, they will probably show up, if I don't mind getting a ride from someone half in the bag. Recently I found a sober person I can hire for $15 an hour, hardly enough to cover her expenses and time, but she is a nice person who mostly does this work to help out people who can't get around.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
I think we are starting to go round in circles here

So it's probably time to agree to disagree on what I feel is the main point - which is that legally, here in the UK, car drivers do have a duty to inform the DVLA if they have a health condition - medical or physical - or disability that is likely to last for more than three months and which might impair their ability to safely drive a car

That is what the law states

And this is what it states in the Driving License:

'You are required by law to inform Drivers Medical Branch, DVLA, Swansea SA99 1AT at once if you have any disability (either physical or medical condition) which is, or may become, likely to affect your fitness as a driver, unless you do not expect it to last more than three months.'

It is the responsibility of the driver to inform the DVLA.
It is the responsibility of doctors to advise patients that medical conditions (and drugs) may affect their ability to drive and for which conditions patients should inform the DVLA.


We are not making a major issue out of this - it is just another question in our monthly website poll. The only place where it seems to have become a big issue is on this discussion forum!

We decided to have a question on car driving and ME/CFS because this is a topic where we receive regular questions on both the DVLA and the insurance companies

And I know from these queries that a small but significant number of people believe that because ME/CFS is not listed as a specific condition by the DVLA, they can carry on driving and there is no requirement whatsover to inform either the DVLA or their insurance company

Which is clearly incorrect.......

There is no special law for us Charles. As with any non-reportable illness (including the acute) or disability, you are required to tell the DVLA and insurance company if it may affect your fitness to drive.
If like me however, you have ME/CFS but it does not affect your ability to drive then there is nothing to report and no legal requirement to. That is clear.

I haven't a desire for this to go round in circles either, but I do still wonder where your advice is coming from; is it just the MEA's interpretation of things or has a recognised expert in this area actually advised you?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
In the US, it is actually the doctor who is mandated to tell the DMV if their patient is unsafe to drive (not the patient) and it is for illness such as Alzheimer's Disease or Epilepsy/seizures etc.

I can't imagine any scenario in the US where an ME/CFS patient would have to alert the DMV as the DMV is already so overloaded as it is, it's the last thing they'd want to be forced to deal with.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
In the US, it is actually the doctor who is mandated to tell the DMV if their patient is unsafe to drive (not the patient) and it is for illness such as Alzheimer's Disease or Epilepsy/seizures etc.

I can't imagine any scenario in the US where an ME/CFS patient would have to alert the DMV as the DMV is already so overloaded as it is, it's the last thing they'd want to be forced to deal with.

In the UK there is a responsibility on doctors (and optomotrists) to inform the DVLA - I dont know if it is a legal requirement or just a guideline. There are written guidelines they are supposed to follow to decide whether you are fit to drive and if the doctor decides they are not fit to drive they are supposed to try and get the patient to inform DVLA voluntarily. If they fail to do so then the doctor has an obligation to report to the DVLA. If the patient disagrees then a separate medical assessment may be ordered which may result in the person being judged fit or unfit or various other things such as being told they need to fit driving aids if they want to continue to drive.

If you are struggling to drive then it is worth looking into driving aids as for some issues they can be very enabling.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
In the UK there is a responsibility on doctors (and optomotrists) to inform the DVLA - I dont know if it is a legal requirement or just a guideline. There are written guidelines they are supposed to follow to decide whether you are fit to drive and if the doctor decides they are not fit to drive they are supposed to try and get the patient to inform DVLA voluntarily. If they fail to do so then the doctor has an obligation to report to the DVLA. If the patient disagrees then a separate medical assessment may be ordered which may result in the person being judged fit or unfit or various other things such as being told they need to fit driving aids if they want to continue to drive.

If you are struggling to drive then it is worth looking into driving aids as for some issues they can be very enabling.

As a doctor here in the UK, this is the guidance from the GMC that we have to follow in relation to patients who have a medical or psychiatric condition (including ME/CFS) that may affect their fitness to drive:


1. The driver is legally responsible for informing DVLA about such a condition or treatment. However, if a patient has such a condition, you should explain to the patient:



a) That the condition may affect their ability to drive (if the patient is incapable of understanding this advice for example because of dementia, you should inform DVLA immediately) and,

b) That they have a legal duty to inform DVLA about the condition.



2. If a patient refuses to accept the diagnosis, or the effect of the condition of their ability to drive, you can suggest that they seek a second opinion, and help arrange for them to do so. You should advise the patient not to drive in the meantime.



3. If a patient continues to drive when they may not be fit to do so, you should make every reasonable effort to persuade them to stop. As long as the patient agrees, you may discuss your concerns with their relatives, friends or carers.



4. If you do not manage to persuade the patient to stop driving, or you discover that they are continuing to drive against your advice, you should contact the DVLA immediately and disclose any relevant medical information, in confidence, to the medical adviser.



5. Before contacting DVLA, you should try to inform the patient of your decision to disclose personal information. You should also inform the patient in writing once you have done so.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,820
I dont understand why the MEA is majoring on such a minor issue (comparative to some of the issues our community faces) anyway?

I think your question was already answered earlier in this thread: it is because there are lot of enquiries to the MEA asking about the legal aspects of driving while affected by ME/CFS. So these enquiries have brought the issue to the fore, in order to provide the correct legal advice.



If like me however, you have ME/CFS but it does not affect your ability to drive then there is nothing to report and no legal requirement to. That is clear.

That does not seem clear, since the DVLA say:
'You are required by law to inform Drivers Medical Branch, DVLA, Swansea SA99 1AT at once if you have any disability (either physical or medical condition) which is, or may become, likely to affect your fitness as a driver, unless you do not expect it to last more than three months.'

So even if it is likely your ME/CFS may in future affect your fitness as a driver, the law says you need to inform the DVLA.



The list of symptoms and other statements about drugs backs this up, as potentially you could be prosecuted for driving with a cold or taking a hayfever tablet. The symptoms may well apply to many with ME/CFS but they are so broad as to cover just about anything, potentially.

The three month clause I think ensures that it is not necessary to inform the DVLA if you have cold or suchlike and this makes you unfit to drive.



Moving on, I think it highly unlikely that any kind of prosecution would be attempted, let alone be successful, on the basis of what you put on your DWP form, should an road accident subsequently occur. Yes, potentially it could happen, perhaps, but has it ever? Is it likely to? Who is advising you on that and are they able to cite any actual examples?

That may be the case, but what you referring to here is not where the law stands on this issue, but rather how likely your are to be caught. And no official advice given to ME/CFS patients by the MEA is going say: "It's illegal, but you'll mostly like get away with it." You cannot really officially advise people to break the law. If they chose to do so, that is their own decision.
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
As a doctor here in the UK, this is the guidance from the GMC that we have to follow in relation to patients who have a medical or psychiatric condition (including ME/CFS) that may affect their fitness to drive:
Are you saying that the GMC lists ME/CFS specifically? Or is it your judgement as a doctor and experience as a patient that leads you to conclude that ME/CFS may affect a patient's fitness to drive? Because if it's the latter, I would no longer be able to complete a degree course at university due to ME but I wouldn't presume that everyone would be similarly affected. Nor would I expect my own GP to conclude that.

I'm still none the wiser about MEA's position than when I posted earlier on this thread:
.
It wouldn't bother me if the DVLA listed ME as one of their health conditions. Arguably it would be preferable to the current situation where MEA appear to be saying if you have certain symptoms then you should be informing the DVLA. Self-reporting on symptoms alone is unsatisfactory because the symptom categories are far too broad.

I don't think MEA are wrong to address this issue but I would like to see a more balanced approach. In emphasising that ME can adversely affect driving ability, you've failed to adequately acknowledge that many pwME are able to drive without putting themselves or others at risk.
Even if someone's ability to drive isn't currently compromised, is it MEA's understanding that the DVLA still needs to be informed?
That may be the case, but what you referring to here is not where the law stands on this issue, but rather how likely your are to be caught. And no official advice given to ME/CFS patients by the MEA is going say: "It's illegal, but you'll mostly like get away with it." You cannot really officially advise people to break the law. If they chose to do so, that is their own decision.
As Aurator pointed our earlier the DVLA verbally confirmed that there was no need to report the condition.
A recent call I made to the DVLA's help line gave me the answer that if my condition is not on their list (ME/CFS isn't, as you say) and I personally didn't feel the condition affected my ability to drive or was likely to in the future, I didn't need to formally notify the DVLA of anything.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,820
As Aurator pointed our earlier the DVLA verbally confirmed that there was no need to report the condition.

As far as I can see, the DVLA list of conditions that may affect driving ability is just for guidance. It does not mean that if a condition is not on this list, then you are safe to drive with that conditions.

There are thousands of medical conditions, some of which are very obscure, but nevertheless may prevent you from driving safety. The DVLA does not and cannot provide an exhaustive list of all these thousands of medical conditions that potentially can impact driving ability.
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
As far as I can see, the DVLA list of conditions that may affect driving ability is just for guidance. It does not mean that if a condition is not on this list, then you are safe to drive with that conditions.

There are thousands of medical conditions, some of which are very obscure, but nevertheless may prevent you from driving safety. The DVLA does not and cannot provide an exhaustive list of all these thousands of medical conditions that potentially can impact driving ability.
I don't disagree with your second paragraph. Nevertheless the DVLA representative's statement is pretty clear. If your condition is not listed, then the important message is that if you don't personally consider that it's affecting your driving ability, then there is no requirement to inform the DVLA. If your doctor disagrees, that's another matter. Some form of arbitration would have to follow, as snowathlete explained.

As I've said previously in this thread, I'd be fine about it if ME was listed. At least I'd know where I stood.

But I'd be happier if MEA gave clearer information. All this thread has done is muddy some waters.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,820
the important message is that if you don't personally consider that it's affecting your driving ability, then there is no requirement to inform the DVLA.

That seems to be right, and I think that is probably all most ME/CFS patients need to know about the law related to driving.

Although strictly speaking it's presumably not whether you personally consider your driving is safe or not (if it were just down to your personal judgement, you could never be prosecuted!); there presumably must in principle be some objective or external measure of driving fitness, such as a doctor's opinion.


And to be pedantic, we should include the caveat explained in the quote above, that if your condition is likely to worsen in future such that it will impair driving ability, then legally, you need to inform the DVLA now, even if your condition is not problematic for driving at the moment. So if you were OK to drive now, but your ME/CFS was on a downward trend and it looked like it would impact your driving in the future, then technically speaking, you would need to inform the DVLA now.



I don't disagree with your second paragraph.

As far as I can work out, my first paragraph is also correct, ie: that the DVLA list of conditions that may affect driving ability is just for guidance. They are not mandatory notifiable conditions. There is no such thing as a mandatory notifiable condition for the DVLA, as far as I can see. It's not the just condition you have, it's whether it affects your driving. That's why I think the DVLA list of medical conditions is more for guidance.

You can see this here where it says:
You must tell DVLA if you have a driving licence and ... you develop a ‘notifiable’ medical condition or disability.

Then it proceeds to state:
Notifiable conditions are anything that could affect your ability to drive safely. They can include:
epilepsy
strokes
other neurological and mental health conditions
physical disabilities
visual impairments

I put the word "can" in bold, because this word indicates these are not mandatory notifiable conditions just because they are included in the DVLA list. Only if the condition affects your driving are you legally obliged to notify the DVLA. That's the way I interpret it, anyway.

This page which lists specific medical conditions also indicates the same thing: its says:
You may need to tell DVLA if you have a driving licence and one of these health conditions.
 
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Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
As far as I can work out, my first paragraph is also correct, ie: that the DVLA list of conditions that may affect driving ability is just for guidance. They are not mandatory notifiable conditions. There is no such thing as a mandatory notifiable condition for the DVLA, as far as I can see. It's not the just condition you have, it's whether it affects your driving. That's why I think the DVLA list of medical conditions is more for guidance.
Sorry, but you're not correct.

The short list here merely gives some examples. When you click here, it takes you to a full list of conditions and symptoms, some of which are mandatory notifiable conditions. To find out if they are mandatory, you need to click on the condition or symptom. So, for example, epilepsy is always mandatory but if you have diabetes, whether or not you need to notify the DVLA depends on the medication you take and what type of vehicle you are driving.

Others, such as high or low blood pressure, are only mandatory if you drive a bus, coach or lorry.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,820
Sorry, but you're not correct.

The short list here merely gives some examples. When you click here, it takes you to a full list of conditions and symptoms, some of which are mandatory notifiable conditions. To find out if they are mandatory, you need to click on the condition or symptom. So, for example, epilepsy is always mandatory but if you have diabetes, whether or not you need to notify the DVLA depends on the medication you take and what type of vehicle you are driving.

OK, thanks for clarifying that. So there are certain medical conditions which you are always legally obliged to tell the DVLA about, irrespective of their severity; but there are other medical conditions which you only need to tell the DVLA about if they affect your driving.

Though even if your medical condition is not listed at all, you still need to tell the DVLA about it, if it affects your driving.
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
Though if your medical condition is not listed at all, you still need to tell the DVLA about it, if it affects your driving.
Yes, that's exactly how I would interpret it, which is why I don't think the OP was helpful because it was so negative.

One of the symptoms listed that may be relevant to most pwME and driving could be cognitive problems. But the examples given of conditions with cognitive problems are dementia and Alzheimers. Now, there's no question that due to ME I have a form of cognitive dysfunction that absolutely prevents me from living the life I want to live but it doesn't in any way compare to the severity of dementia and it doesn't affect my ability to drive safely, so I assume that when the DVLA lists 'cognitive problems', they don't mean me. However, that doesn't mean I'm assuming that it never applies to pwME.

I also don't claim that having ME has no implications at all for my driving. Ten years ago when I was very mild, I was driving a minibus full of people from Edinburgh to Cardiff for the weekend. I couldn't do that now. It's too far and it would be too noisy / overwhelming. These days, a few hours split in two with a break of at least half an hour is a long drive for me. I only do it a couple of times a year when I go on holiday and I always need to rest the following day.
 
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Aurator

Senior Member
Messages
625
I feel a little sorry for Charles at this point given that his sole intention in raising this matter has been to protect people, in more ways than one. I hear his message loud and clear: that we should inform the DVLA and our insurers of our condition.

Really, the only culpable party in all of this is the DVLA, who, in their typically slipshod fashion, have stated the case ambiguously at best. It's quite probable that many at the DVLA aren't clear themselves ultimately about who is allowed to do what.

On a positive note, I think I'm right in saying that if you do inform the DVLA and your insurers that you have ME but that it doesn't affect your driving, and it genuinely doesn't affect it and your GP agrees with you, then there is very little likelihood that your licence will be taken away from you or your insurance policy voided.

I think the message to take away is that we risk losing more by not informing the relevant parties than we risk by informing them. I'm almost certain that if I ever harmed someone while I was at the wheel of a car, and I hadn't made any declaration about my illness to the relevant parties, my feelings of guilt would be all the greater even if I felt that my illness was not actually responsible for the harm occasioned by my driving.
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
I feel a little sorry for Charles at this point given that his sole intention in raising this matter has been to protect people, in more ways than one. I hear his message loud and clear: that we should inform the DVLA and our insurers of our condition.

Really, the only culpable party in all of this is the DVLA, who, in their typically slipshod fashion, have stated the case ambiguously at best. It's quite probable that many at the DVLA aren't clear themselves ultimately about who is allowed to do what.
Problem is, I'm not sure that the DVLA are being ambiguous. Their site seems pretty clear to me. It's MEA that are causing the confusion.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,820
Yes, that's exactly how I would interpret it, which is why I don't think the OP was helpful because it was so negative.

In what way was @charles shepherd's original post "so negative"? I did not see any negative remarks in that post; rather the highlighted text in that post, which includes the following item, succinctly and simply explains the situation with regards to the law:
You are required by law to inform Drivers Medical Branch, DVLA, Swansea SA99 1AT at once if you have any disability (either physical or medical condition) which is, or may become, likely to affect your fitness as a driver, unless you do not expect it to last more than three months.
I thought is was the ME/CFS patients here that were being negative and argumentative to what should have been a simple and straightforward issue.
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
In what way was @charles shepherd's original post "so negative"? I did not see any negative remarks in that post; rather the highlighted text in that post, which includes the following item, succinctly and simply explains the situation with regards to the law:
It was 'so negative' because it wasn't balanced. This statement:
So I think it's important to start off by pointing out that people with ME/CFS have a number of symptoms - muscle fatigue/weakness, cognitive dysfunction, blurred vision, and daytime fatigue/sleepiness in particular - that can or will affect their ability to safely drive a car.
is nowhere balanced by any acknowledgement that many pwME are able to drive safely. Therefore it causes doubt about what MEA are advising. I'll state now quite clearly that I have absolutely no idea if MEA are suggesting that I have a duty to notify the DVLA or not. And if I do, which form am I supposed to use? They are condition specific.