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ME/CFS meeting at the Royal Society of Medicine - March 18th 2015

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
That isn't true, at least in the case of biological ME/SEID research. Grants have been turned down due to reviewers who systematically reject biological research into ME/SEID. This happened very recently to Dr Ian Lipkin in the US, and I seem to recall discussion of a similar problem in the UK.
I know there are claims of at least several cases, not counting Lipkin, where the research proposal was rejected, and not because it was bad. It was because it was biomedical, and to the reviewers CFS was a psychiatric issue.

Protest over this often does not happen. Its discussed on the quiet. Not every review group will have such bias, and nobody wants to rock the boat. Now I only know of about 3 cases, though I am also mindful of the Elephant in the Room speech. How many do I not know about? Its not universal, but how prevalent is it?
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
I think there are a wide range of reasons why the field of ME/CFS has been held back; with many of the reasons mentioned in this thread. We know for a fact that there has been a certain amount of wrong-doing, because it has been documented. e.g. the CDC siphoned off funds meant for the CFS program and redirected it to other programs. I think this was said to have come about because of a culture at the CDC which belittled CFS as an entity. Anyone who took CFS seriously was ridiculed. And so it became culturally acceptable within the CDC to divert funds away from the CFS program. How such cultures come about in the first place is probably a mix of things, including ignorance, group-think, self-interest, vested interests, office politics, etc., all playing their part. I think it all comes down to human nature, and the world of ME/CFS reflects the world at large whereby people want to protect their own interests, and some groups are more successful at it than others.

If you get various separate groups of people who all have an interest in the same outcome, but for different reasons, then it can create a tide or a current where everything starts moving in that direction. In the case of ME/CFS, I think we've seen this situation where there are various self-interested groups all pulling in the same direction, but all for their own reasons, and the resulting tide has been moving in a direction that's not in the interests of patients.

Conspiracy might be too strong a word for it, but if conspiracy means two or more people making self-interested plans that happen to harm the interests of others, then conspiracy has had a part to play, as it does in many areas of life. But that doesn't mean a single, widespread or coordinated conspiracy. I think a pattern of behaviour by authorities (health care authorities and government agencies and funding bodies) has fallen into place, because it's suited a large number of players, and this pattern of behaviour can sometimes look like a coordinated conspiracy. Governments have wanted easy answers, so they've accepted the authoritative and easy answers given to them in relation to ME/CFS. Health authorities simply want some answers, rather than no answers, and cognitive-behavioural interventions have provided those easy answers; They're false answers, but they take the pressure off the authorities to be seen to be doing something. Health insurance companies want cheap answers for a long-term expensive health conditions that are difficult to manage: and the cognitive-behavioural model has provided some answers to the insurance industry. The media will go along with the prevailing wind, and run with any story that is presented to them. Funding bodies are inevitably influenced by internal and external politics and pressures, and so are influenced by vested interests: everyone wants the funding for themselves. And the psychiatric lobby in the UK seem to have undue influence over health policy for ME/CFS and funding decisions and possibly certain areas of academia; or at least they have in the past. All these factors have combined into a pretty powerful force that can superficially look like a single widespread conspiracy.

But in reality it's a bit of conspiracy, a huge amount of ignorance, a large degree of convenience, muddle, various politics at play, self-interest, vested interests, group-think, human nature, and cultural norms.

But I think the single biggest issue is simply the vacuum that is created when there is no knowledge. ME/CFS is basically a huge vacuum, so large that it's like a black hole, and it sucks in the whole wide gamut of humanity, with everyone pursuing and promoting their own interests. As soon as this vacuum is filled with some real solid knowledge (ie. a biomarker or treatment), things will be transformed over-night, with such speed, that our feet won't touch the ground and we won't look back on the sordid history of this disease. Just as MS and Parkinson's patients are no longer haunted by times gone by.

That's my take on it anyway. But perhaps I'm playing down the conspiracy angle a bit here - I often think there is much more going on. I do think a degree of conspiracy has been observed and uncovered, but to suggest that there is a single powerful conspiracy playing out against patients' interests is undoubtedly wrong and to suggest it is also counterproductive because people switch off when they hear that kind of talk.

I think we need to continue to fight our corner, to push for more funding and better recognition etc. If my wishes had any influence, then my two priorities would be 1. biomedical research funding and 2. clinical centres of excellence staffed by immunologists, neurologists, rheumatologists, pain specialists, sleep specialists, occupational therapists, counsellors (for those who need help adjusting to chronic illness), and where other potential causes of ME-like symptoms, flu-like symptoms and fatigue are also screened (e.g. by specialists in cancer, autoimmunity, genetic conditions, rare illnesses, infections, sleep conditions, etc.)
 
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Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
I always got money for pretend projects that I knew would be liked by committees and used the money for something else.
Dr Nancy Klimas, in the US, has a similar approach whereby she gets funding for CFS research by tagging it onto her GWI research (e.g. by using CFS patients as controls in GWI studies) and she seems to get the bulk of her funding via the Department of Defence and the Veterans Association. I wonder if Dr Lipkin should take a similar approach and apply for funding to investigate the post-Ebola syndrome, using CFS patients as controls. Ebola seems to be quite a research focus at the moment.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
That isn't true, at least in the case of biological ME/SEID research. Grants have been turned down due to reviewers who systematically reject biological research into ME/SEID. This happened very recently to Dr Ian Lipkin in the US, and I seem to recall discussion of a similar problem in the UK.

I don't think we have any evidence for that, Valentijn. And I was talking of the past. These days almost everything gets rejected. There is no need for a special explanation. I strongly suspect that Dr Lipkin's microbiome project was drafted to take advantage of the current fashion for the microbiome. Unless you do that you have little or no chance. I personally think that the sort of work that Mady Hornig has been doing is higher priority but she probably has to do that sort of work on the back of whatever grants can be got in. It seems that the microbiome fashionistas did not bite - but that is the way the game goes. It is all a mess but I think it has more to do with people being blinkered than any wilful doing down of biological research. I would like to see some evidence.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I don't think we have any evidence for that, Valentijn. And I was talking of the past.
Here's what he said in an interview:
Dr Ian Lipkin said:
I have been in competition now twice to get funded, and the people there who reviewed me gave me abysmal scores. And the critiques of my work were unfair, and one of the people who critiqued my work said, in fact, that this is a psychosomatic illness. I was floored. I protested, and for reasons that are obscure to me this same individual wound up back on the study section, and I got a similar unfundable score. Am I upset about this? Absolutely.
 

rosamary

Senior Member
Messages
131
I don't think we have any evidence for that, Valentijn. And I was talking of the past. These days almost everything gets rejected. There is no need for a special explanation. I strongly suspect that Dr Lipkin's microbiome project was drafted to take advantage of the current fashion for the microbiome. Unless you do that you have little or no chance. I personally think that the sort of work that Mady Hornig has been doing is higher priority but she probably has to do that sort of work on the back of whatever grants can be got in. It seems that the microbiome fashionistas did not bite - but that is the way the game goes. It is all a mess but I think it has more to do with people being blinkered than any wilful doing down of biological research. I would like to see some evidence.

A few tears back prof Holgate said that there had been a recent change at the MRC. Something to do with the way research applications were considered.

So a research application pertaining to ME prior to the change would automatically go to the neurology and psychiatry section.

But the change meant that whatever the research, it would now be considered by a cross section of specialists.

Something along those lines. So, as neurologists and psychiatrists saw ME as a mental health issue (for some reason) they were likely to reject biomedical research applications.

I suspect that there WAS wilful doing down of biological research .
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
.
Is the UK Rituximab trial design of sufficient quality and medically important enough to be funded by the MRC?

If it is - why was there no application to the MRC?

Patients and their carers/families are busting a gut to fundraise for that trial. Many individual patients are donating out of their pitifully low sickness benefits.
.

Dear Wildcat,

Who are these people who "should" have put in several hundred hours work sorting out the bureaucratic nightmare of an MRC application that would have to compete with cancer, heart disease, diabetes and dementia and have a 90% chance of being turned down simply because that is what happens?

I am a retired physician advising IiME. One of the reasons I retired was that I had had it up to my neck with wasting time writing grant applications that were never funded. I am not going to write one. Richard and Pia Simpson work their fingers to the bone trying to get things started but have no scientific expertise. Jo Cambridge has worked on ME for the last year because she is interested but she is paid by a rheumatology department to research rheumatic disease and is not a clinician. The clinicians who have been involved are drowning in routine service work.

So who has been lazy about this?

All these discussions are very helpful but I sometimes think it would be useful for people to have some idea of the realities of trying to do science.
 
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Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Yes, I was talking of the past and getting upset about being turned down is just the daily routine these days. There will always be someone on the committee who thinks your idea is stupid if it is original.

I think the issue with ME has been that the assessment panels have included psychiatrists who hold to a psychosomatic model of ME and will therefore reject any biomedical proposal, original or not. That was what happened to Dr Lipkin; if memory serves, it happened in the UK in the past. I don't know if there's any protection against it currently happening in the UK.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
he was having huge problems getting funding and publishing. Over time if people are persistent things get better so now there is a journal and a research community in that area.

We used to have a journal but now it's defunct. We have a research community that is pushing ahead despite all the obstacles. We know they have the skills and experience to solve the puzzle, but I don't expect them to live in poverty to carry out their work. So far tiny funding has resulted in tiny pilot studies. I don't see how tiny pilot studies can be expanded without significant funding, and that won't happen without continuous pressure in the right places. I don't know exactly what those places are. I suggest we try to find out.

Over the past 30 years the funding situation in the U.S. has gotten worse, not better. This is from Jennie Spotila's website:

NIH funding of ME/CFS research has bumped up against a deadline that could have dire consequences for 2015 and beyond. The primary mechanism for grant applications has expired.
Grant applications to NIH must be submitted in response to calls for proposals. Sometimes that takes the form of an RFA, in which money is set aside for a specific purpose. ME/CFS advocates have been begging for an RFA for years without success.

The usual way to submit a grant application is in response to a Program Announcement, and this has been the norm in ME/CFS for many years. However, the current Program Announcement EXPIRED on February 25, 2015. In the past, these announcements have been extended by a year or more, as an apparent matter of routine. But not this year. The only way to submit an ME/CFS grant proposal now is for collaborative research at the NIH Clinical Care Center, and that program announcement expires on March 20, 2015.

Of course we don't know if this is just another bureaucratic muddle or a deliberate policy decision to deny funding. That's my whole point: there is no transparency; we don't know what's going on and NIH won't tell us. That's why there needs to be an investigation of why there are no RFAs, no Centers of Excellence, no implementation of any recommendation by any number of government Advisory Committees, government-sponsored conferences, etc. NIH ignores its own experts and reports.

I'm already 60 years old. I'm not going to wait around another 20 years to see if NIH finally decides to help us. I was nearly 50 years old when I got sick, so I had a chance to have a life, and I took it. If I never get my life back, well, that sucks for me, but so what. But I can't stand the thought of another generation of young people suffering for decades, never having a chance to have a life.

It's easy enough for HHS/NIH to dispel rumors of wrong-doing - just do something right for a change. They could start by building on Obama's statement that he would help us. Even a vague, non-committal statement that HHS is determined to solve the puzzle, followed by an RFA, would be a show of good faith on their part.

Instead we get divisive reports and total silence from the leadership. I don't accept that, so I'll keep ranting and raving as long as I can. If my pitiful efforts come to nothing, well, I know I tried.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
I would like to see some evidence.

As would we all, I am sure. That's why I'd like to see the investigation recommended by the Parliamentary Group, nine years ago now. If there's nothing there, a competent investigation could show that, and settle the question. If the spotlight turns on and cockroaches are scurrying for the corners, well, it could be a good idea to see where their nest is.

All these discussions are very helpful but I sometimes think it would be useful for people to have some idea of the realities of trying to do science.

I appreciate that you are taking the trouble to educate us about these realities.
 

aimossy

Senior Member
Messages
1,106
I don't think we have any evidence for that, Valentijn. And I was talking of the past. These days almost everything gets rejected. There is no need for a special explanation. I strongly suspect that Dr Lipkin's microbiome project was drafted to take advantage of the current fashion for the microbiome. Unless you do that you have little or no chance. I personally think that the sort of work that Mady Hornig has been doing is higher priority but she probably has to do that sort of work on the back of whatever grants can be got in. It seems that the microbiome fashionistas did not bite - but that is the way the game goes. It is all a mess but I think it has more to do with people being blinkered than any wilful doing down of biological research. I would like to see some evidence.

Dear Jonathan Edwards..
"I strongly suspect that Dr Lipkin's microbiome project was drafted to take advantage of the current fashion for the microbiome."
I really hope that isn't the case because some of us just about did ourselves in crowdfunding for that specific microbiome work and believe in the need for investigation regarding immune system and gut brain axis ( too many reasons for me to list personally). I wouldn't need to tell you how hard it is to get donations for something people think only involves s**t and who don't think about it with respect to possibilities regarding the immune system and gut brain axis, neuro effects, I won't go on..

I'm trying to see how they would even want to do that work if they really didn't want to do that work, just saying. I would also bust a gut to crowdfund you and have donated to IiME, I have much respect for those researchers work and you and your work.

If researchers just need money and flexibility when it comes to patient efforts to get money to them they should be honest about that. Maybe I have taken this out of context and being too sensitive, but that hit a nerve. I know your only being honest and I respect that very much and think the community needs that, so I hope you can excuse me having a bit of a strop about it.

If I have missed part of this thread I am sorry, but I do have a question. I heard that money is there for biomedical research from the MRC ( sure I could have all this wrong and a bit confused not being from the UK ). What's to stop for example, you and a few other biomedical interested parties getting together and coming up with what research is needed - recruiting good researchers to get some great applications in to test this out? Is that what the CMRC is supposed to be for?

Apologies if this is in the works or I have missed reading information, I have hope that you along with some others might manage to make something work in this area. I guess that is my perfect scenario though and would be very hard to achieve, but I keep thinking why not!? Is the climate changing could it work now where it couldn't have in the past.
 

MEMum

Senior Member
Messages
440
We would be better off investing the money into research rather than wasting it on dubious therapies in fatigue clinics.

We can also handle being told that there is no effective treatment available.


I think that being told this at sixteen would be incredibly hard.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I think that being told this at sixteen would be incredibly hard.
I doubt it.

When I was 7, I found out that Santa Claus doesn't exist. I was very upset, but not because my fantasy was crushed. I was upset because my mother had been lying to me for all of my life, and had betrayed my trust in her.

Kids will get over it when they find out that there isn't a cure, especially if they have the love and support of their family and friends. Whereas being told that there is a cure and they just have to try hard enough to make it work (CBT/GET, LP, etc) has resulted in at least one child attempting suicide when he failed to live up to the expectations placed upon him.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I think that being told this at sixteen would be incredibly hard.

I understand your concern about this. But the fact that there is as yet no proven treatment that the NHS (assuming you're in the UK, given that you're a mum and not a mom!) can offer doesn't mean that there's no helpful treatment that you might try to find on your own (the position that most of us here are in), or that some spontaneous improvement might not gradually occur (especially at 16 rather than when older).

As a patient, it's important not to be lied to, especially when the treatment that people are lying to you about (GET) can be extremely harmful.
 
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Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Dear Jonathan Edwards..
"I strongly suspect that Dr Lipkin's microbiome project was drafted to take advantage of the current fashion for the microbiome."
I really hope that isn't the case because some of us just about did ourselves in crowdfunding for that specific microbiome work and believe in the need for investigation regarding immune system and gut brain axis ( too many reasons for me to list personally).

I did not want to imply that the microbiome stuff was not worth doing or that they would not be doing it. Just that the whole grant application thing is a weird game with upside down rules.


I heard that money is there for biomedical research from the MRC ( sure I could have all this wrong and a bit confused not being from the UK ). What's to stop for example, you and a few other biomedical interested parties getting together and coming up with what research is needed - recruiting good researchers to get some great applications in to test this out? Is that what the CMRC is supposed to be for?

The ring fenced MRC pot for ME/CFS is used up and will not be repeated. We are back to open competition with diabetes and heart disease. But there is nothing to stop anyone from getting together and agreeing on what research is needed. The CMRC seems to be sort of for that but so far it has made use of the ordinary competitive one project at a time structure of MRC applications. So we have half a dozen unrelated projects in unconnected units. That may lead on to more connection but my feeling is that there is too much focus on models and not enough on PWME - except perhaps in terms of Julia Newton's programme.
 

rosamary

Senior Member
Messages
131
If I have missed part of this thread I am sorry, but I do have a question. I heard that money is there for biomedical research from the MRC ( sure I could have all this wrong and a bit confused not being from the UK ). What's to stop for example, you and a few other biomedical interested parties getting together and coming up with what research is needed - recruiting good researchers to get some great applications in to test this out? Is that what the CMRC is supposed to be for?

I don't there is money available now. (I may have missed some big news).

There WAS some money and various research is taking place. Originally for this current research there was 1.5 million and that may have been bumped up to 2 million.

If you want to know how this came about:

http://www.mrc.ac.uk/funding/science-areas/population-systems-medicine/cfsme/

It was what was happening before CFS//Me was prioritised that is the really annoying bit.

And there was a lot more money available about 10 years ago...and guess which drain swallowed that up .