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ME caused by squeezed nerve?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by optimist, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @optimist
    Well conceivably your bash to the head might well have misaligned something like the atlas or jaw bone, so given that history, it might well be worthwhile pursuing atlas treatment. It may not been the cause of your ME/CFS, but it might be a contributory factor.
    Wayne likes this.
  2. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    I'd want to talk with some of those worst cases that he still has contact with. Seems like they would be glad to share their testimonies with you? (not trying to be sarcastic). I think a lot of us have been at the crossroads of trying 'unconventional therapies at one time or another. I've been there and done that and it doesn't mean that I dismiss any therapy that may work for someone but I've spent way too much money and energy.........and as Alex mentioned sounds like this would require a good amount of spending. Just sharing from experience..............it really is a very personal choice only you can make.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  3. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    @Tired of being sick I've never heard anything like it! Sounds like being struck by lightning ten times in a row... Sorry you had to go through all that!

    "(They ran a lot of brain tests on me but I have no record of what they found)" Did you try to make contact with that hospital to get a copy of your journals?

    @Hip Perhaps... what kind of professional would be the best to consult? A chiropractor? It seems a bit scary too, having someone treat you in such voulnarable areas of the body. Are there any risks involved?
    Tired of being sick likes this.
  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    optimist and SOC like this.
  5. Tired of being sick

    Tired of being sick Senior Member

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    It happened in 1978 and I didn't figure it out (put 2 and 2 together)until around 5 years ago..

    So there is no way to get those records since they have been destroyed many years ago
    Statute of limitations
    ME has been in a very slow progression for me, mostly out of pride, fight and subconsciousness

    I've been fighting ME subconsciously for 36+ years.......

    But now my mind & body is TOO old/destroyed to suppress the symptoms on the outside or make it look like I'm somewhat normal in society's eyes............

    When you can't hide horrid health issues .any longer

    It's time to look in the mirror and say I can't do this any longer,I need HELP!!

    If it wasn't for the internet, I would still be lying in bed thinking I'm insane waiting for death!!!

    Thank God for that!!

    Doctors DESPISE the internet because it shows their incompetence on every level..

    They dig themselves in a hole of ignorance when they have no clue of complicated health conditions,like ours..

    If their Egos were not falsely inflated by store bought credentials
    We would have ease of access to getting REAL help....

    But the fact is, Ego-less Dr's are far and few between.....
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
    Wayne likes this.
  6. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Indeed it can. But is the question here, "Does TMJ alignment have the potential to improve some health conditions?" Or is the question, "Does TMJ misalignment cause ME"? The title of the thread is "ME caused by squeezed nerve?"

    Having read this thread, it appears to me that while misalignments affecting the vagus nerve can cause some symptoms that overlap with ME, there doesn't seem to be any real indication that it causes CCC/ICC ME. It looks more like a possible misdiagnosis situation to me. Of course, there could be people who have both misalignments and ME and so treating the misalignment could substantially improve their condition, but it wouldn't cure their ME.
    NK17 likes this.
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Perhaps just find a regular atlas profilax therapist. I have not tried this therapy myself, but quite a few people on this forum have.


    Well, regarding the question of does TMJ misalignment cause ME/CFS: the interesting thing about TMJ dysfunction is that this is known to be a common comorbidity of ME/CFS. For any disease comorbidity, the consideration always arises: is the comorbidity a cause or a consequence of the disease? Now if TMJ dysfunction were a causal factor in ME/CFS, rather than a consequence of ME/CFS, then treating TMJ dysfunction could conceivably bring improvements in ME/CFS symptoms.

    This applies to other ME/CFS comorbidities too, such as IBS. IBS is very common in ME/CFS, and many patients like myself had IBS for many years before they developed ME/CFS. So this always make me wonder whether IBS might play a causal role in ME/CFS.



    Some more suggestive evidence for a head or neck injury/misalignment connection to ME/CFS and fibromyalgia comes from observations on physical trauma: these disease are known to sometime arises after a physical trauma such as a car crash, especially if the neck is involved. This study for example mentions that soft tissue trauma to the neck can result in an increased incidence of fibromyalgia; and this study found that fibromyalgia was 13 times more frequent following neck injury than following lower extremity injury.



    Ultimately here's no solid proof that jaw, atlas or neck misalignment play any causal role in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia, but there are enough anecdotes and evidence to suggest that such misalignment might conceivably be involved, and so patients who decide to explore this area by means of TMJ, atlas profilax or similar therapies may well find benefits.

    Since participating in this thread, it has certainly made me curious about trying such therapies.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
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  8. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @Hip Very interesting what you said re: co-morbidity vs. causal relationship. I don't want to take this thread off track but I now have co-morbid Hashimotos Disease w/CFS and wonder if the same virus & immune issues led to the attack on my thyroid that led to the CFS?
    NK17 likes this.
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Gingergrrl43
    Hashimoto’s thyroiditis is another known comorbid condition of ME/CFS, so yes, the question arises as to whether Hashimoto’s is a cause or consequence of ME/CFS; or it could be neither of these two options, because a third logical possibility is that both ME/CFS and Hashimoto’s might be caused by some independent factor, such as for example an existing predisposition to autoimmunity.
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  10. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    This was a bit educational:
    Hip likes this.
  11. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I do understand that but the scammers I have met all have some underpinning credible scientific theory to hang their scam on.

    There is a huge difference from seeing a carpenter who wants to isolate someone and who claims to cure ME for a treatment and seeing Dr Amir
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  12. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    Looking at this: http://zygotebody.com/#nav=-2.08,146.69,16.11
    The red "pins" going from the scull, and resting on the atlas bone that is seen in the video I posted are not there...

    EDIT: You have to pull the handle on the left down a few notches.
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I certain agree that his requirement to drop all other ME/CFS treatments is disconcerting; if his atlas treatment worked, then it should work whether or not you take other treatments. If I were being treated by him, I certainly would not drop my other treatments.

    I guess it also depends on the personality of the patient: for example, I find myself largely immune to the rhetoric and belief systems of others, and judge a therapy purely by its results, not by the rhetoric. I am not going be swayed by a charismatic personality or sales pitch. But if you are the sort of personality that is easily swayed in this way, you should be wary of someone who tells you to drop all other treatments and put all your faith in them.
  14. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I depends how your quality control works. If you truly believe that he has healed x number of PWME then you would judge the therapy as positive from those results

    As far as I am aware neither the carpenter or Dr Amir or any of the other doctors and practitioners mentioned in any of the links given have ever published a paper on their success rate with PWME or PWCFS so that we can examine the evidence with some figures and hopefully tests before and after.

    So we are down (as is sometimes the care) for anecdotal evidence either from old patients (if the carpenters ones are tracked down and want to talk) and patients here who had had similar therapies, and from the testimonials online. It's business as usual in these grey areas and unscrupulous and deluded individuals can take advantage of that.

    It's up to us as individuals how much weight we give to each individual piece of evidence. I've been hearing about claims for CFS and ME cures for 30 years now and my bar is pretty high now.
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    One issue to consider is the over-exaggerated use of the "cure" word. This over-exaggeration is not just confined to this carpenter therapist, but is also found in many alternative medicine websites and books. You can find many alternative medicine guides on "How to reverse Parkinson's disease with supplements", for example. Now we all know that Parkinson's disease is not curable and not reversible, yet these guides blithely claim they can cure it. In reality, the supplements detailed in these guides may have a beneficial effect on Parkinson's, but they will not cure it. So they greatly over-exaggerate.

    The vastly over-exaggerated use of the word "cure" is in fact a marketing ploy to sell alternative medicine books or ebooks, and to grab the reader's attention. I suspect the same applies to this this carpenter therapist: he is likely vastly over-exaggerating when he says he can cure ME/CFS.

    And it's not only alternative medicine that employs this over-exaggerates use of the word "cure": as we know, those unscrupulous psychologists and psychiatrists publishing studies on CBT/GET for ME/CFS have claimed their therapies lead to "recovery" in ME/CFS patients. When you look more closely, you find these psychiatrists have defined the word "recovery" to mean "a little bit better", but that is only found in the "small print" of their studies. So these CBT/GET psychiatrists are very dishonest too.

    I wish people were more accurate and level-headed about their claims, but it seems that over-exaggeration of efficacy is commonplace in alternative therapies, and in some psychiatric circles.
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  16. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

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    Just had a thought - what if ME causes the nerve to become inflamed or irritated, e.g. through infection, such that a previously asymptomatic impingement starts to cause problems?
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think this is the sort of scenario that may be behind chronic fatigue syndrome: several causal factors that act in concert to produce ME/CFS.
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  18. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    Yes, it is a good advice! If I could meet, say, ten people, I guess I could be more convinced... As of now, I just want to gather more information about the possibility of this being an cause, and later perhaps consult a professional who has the required insight and training of where to push so I will not end up lame or something :)

    I find this whole nerve thing sounding very delicate, and I suppose wrong treatment can give bad results.
    SOC likes this.
  19. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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  20. Ecoclimber

    Ecoclimber Senior Member

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    Jaw position affects brain blood flow

    Heit T, Derkson C, Bierkos J, Saqqur M. The effect of the physiological rest position of the mandible on cerebral blood flow and physical balance: an observational study. Cranio. 2014 Jul 18:886963414Z00000000063. [Epub ahead of print]

    Aims: There has been much published evidence that balance can improve by changing the mandible's position relative to the maxilla as it comes together with the teeth (or oral device) as the endpoint. 1 - 10 To help with the complexity of this topic, a definitions table* (in Appendix ) has been included at the end of the manuscript for reference as needed. The aim of the current study is to evaluate whether the physiologic rest position of the jaw* (oral device overtop of the teeth as endpoint where the muscles of mastication are optimized) 11 can have an effect on cerebral blood flow and physical balance using measurable data relative to the person's natural, or habitual bite (teeth as endpoint) in both healthy and diseased volunteers.

    Methodology: Seven healthy male professional football athletes and two females with multiple sclerosis were included in this observational study, which tested the subjects in both jaw positions. Cerebral blood flow was measured non-invasively by ultrasound over the temporal region of the skull using mean flow velocity (MFV)* and pulsatility index (PI)* of the right and left middle cerebral arteries while the subject clenched the teeth together in both jaw positions. The MFV is the average speed of the blood flow in a given region of a blood vessel. The PI measures cerebral intravascular resistance. Physiologic balance of the whole body was also tested while the subjects were in both jaw positions using the y-excursion balance test* and by videotape
    .
    Results: (i) Cerebral blood flow. On the natural teeth, the MFV dropped from baseline to clenching position (mean drop -2·6±7·7 cm/second, whereas, the MFV was slightly enhanced with the physiologic rest position (PRP) [mean enhancement is 0·82±3·7 cm/second (P = 0·07)]. At baseline on natural teeth, the PI dropped slightly from baseline to clenching (mean drop 0·015±0·19). Whereas with PRP, the PI dropped by mean of 0·059±0·072 (P = 0·15). (ii) Balance. The mean balance measurement while using the PRP was 119·54±12·56 cm (P = 0·001), whereas the mean balance measurement on natural teeth was 110·72±9·47 cm. Balance improved subjectively in both MS patients on videotape.

    Conclusion: The physiologic rest position of the mandible might have an effect on balance by showing a trend (demonstrating a tendency) in enhancing cerebral blood flow as measured by transcranial Doppler.


    P<0.07 means no statistical difference, but this study suggests that jaw position influences cerebral blood flow, but with n=2 you can't make any conclusions.

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