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Marshall Protocol

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by affa, Jul 19, 2010.

  1. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Has any proponent of the Marshall Protocol ever been able to explain why it is not dangerous to take low dose antibiotics on an on-off basis in the presence of severe bacterial infections? This does nothing but increase antibiotic resistance, as has been proven in far too many studies and clinical trials since antibiotics were first introduced.

    Also, has anyone ever been able to explain why Marshall himself is so extraordinarily rude and aggressive when anyone asks him to explain just about anything at all, or indeed approaches him with anything other than fawning fan mail?

    Finally, can anyone explain to me why Marshall is allowed to prescribe treatment plans to patients when he is not a registered medical practitioner in any country and does not have a degree in medicine?

    Just wondering.
  2. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    The anti-biotic resistance is addressed here: http://mpkb.org/home/physicians/concerns

    “Long-term antibiotic therapy is dangerous and will lead to development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.” In the the 40 years since the release of minocyclineBacteriostatic antibiotic used by Marshall Protocol patients., the primary MP antibiotic, no significant species have been shown to be resistant to it. Minocycline is also one of the few antibiotics that remains active against the bacterial species Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), despite the fact that it has been prescribed for decades. Read more →

    and in more detail here http://mpkb.org/home/protocol/mp_antibiotics/antibiotics_concerns

    As for the attitude, some people are just naturally inclined to be berigerant or perhaps he is still infected with L-forms and showing irritability; it is one of the symptoms and he advises every patient to do yearly antibiotic cleanup which implies continuing infection.

    As for prescribing, he uses disclaimers that it is the MD's ultimate responsibility to direct treatment. He is just doing the research. I suspect you are correct that his lack of familiarity with medical research is causing errors in the research.

    These problems are undermining their efforts. More than half of the MDs I contacted on their North Carolina referral list quit doing the treatment due to lack of efficacy and none of the MDs on my Cigna insurance panel would try it after they read his physician information summary-it has too poor a reputation. My current MD agrees with me that the problems I mentioned above are real. If they don't correct the problems they will probably go out of business.

    Despite the problems, I think everyone owes him a debt of gratitude for getting the ball rolling on exploring the role of L form bacteria in chronic diseases. While I no longer advise people to do the straight Marshall Protocol I do recognize his contributions and thank him for what he was able to accomplish which is considerable considering he is a non-medical person.
  3. hoMEy

    hoMEy

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    fejal i recognise that you have criticisms of marshall and the protocol and thinks that's good. if these treaments prove anything then it's the role that fungal, microbial and viral overload play in m.e. cfs...unfortunatelky in my view the treatment is harmfull, fundamentally flawed and counter recovery, but i've said that. it's good he sees the role of bacteria etc, but i owe him NO debt of gratitude, i worked that one out in the very beginning of my illness and i knew less then than i do now and virtually most natural practitioners know the role of candida and/or the other pathogens, it's no great revelation by any means. but they have zoomed in on the pathogen at the expense of all else, forgetting that leaky gut and acidosis is caused bt a.b.'s and hence prevent recovery....and i thank no-one for profitting from harmfull treatments to vulnerable fellow sufferers...should be taken to court if you ask me...

    am i correct in assuming from what you have typed that he himself is ill? as i understand it, dr.wright, the uk version, is to. seems they can't even cure themselves...also dr.wright's practise seems to be a tad ad hoc as well, to say the least...

    "the microbe is nothing, the terrain is everything" - louis pasteur... (alkaline tissues = no pathogens)
  4. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    I don't know this Dr. Wright. Who are you referring to?

    As far as your mistaken belief that the body can kill L forms you are totally wrong. These bacteria are evolved to evade the body's defenses by suppressing the immune system with excess vitamin D so they can parasitize your white blood cells. This has nothing to do with acidity, leaky gut or any other fad theory. If you don't target them specifically then you stay sick with the result being they will greatly shorten your life, cause massive inflammation, cause autoimmune diseases and eventually kill you. Before I started treatment for the infection I was taking 2400 mg of ibuprofen and 4g acetaminophen per day just to manage the inflammatory pain. This improves, as do the other signs of infection, with treatment. Here are some patient reports documenting the improvements on the old Marshall Protocol even without the new supplements.

    The approaches you mention and the current mistaken belief that treating the xmrv virus trigger is a cure for the condition have no evidence showing any effectiveness and for people familiar with the available data look very unfavorable as anything other than a trigger that allows the L forms to colonize by opening a window of immune system surpression. I am sure this is an unpopular view but if XMRV was the cause of disease then we would see higher rates of disease causality instead of a 30% association for cancer and very low viral loads. The XMRV alone theory is also contradicted by the fact that viruses lower vitamin 1,25D metabolite but in autoimmune diseases and chronic fatigue syndrome we see it elevated. The key here is immunity and that is mainly controlled by the L form infection. I think this is very encouraging because eradicating L forms is achievable which means despite a positive XMRV exposure people still have the possibility of making a full recovery from chronic fatigue (as opposed to the fact that if it was solely from the retrovirus there would be no hope except for lifetime antiviral therapy because this virus is a permanent part of one's DNA once infected).

    I understand your hostility towards Dr. Marshall as well. He has alienated and offended many people, including me, his original Board of Directors and my medical doctor. And because you don't seem to see the importance of treating L form infections I understand why you don't feel any gratitude to Dr. Marshall for sticking his neck out and researching the treatment.

    By the way, for anyone interested there is another Marshall Protocol support group called the Chronic Illness Recovery Group that is not affiliated with Trevor Marshall PhD. Their website is here http://www.chronicillnessrecovery.org/ . I have shared my research on the effective use of supplements against L forms and hope to see them be used by them for the benefit of more patients.
  5. hoMEy

    hoMEy

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    dr. wright sells antibiotic cures in the uk...same in many ways to marshall; full of similar facts n stats and apparent understanding and the same zero recovery and poor overall results and the usual arguments. the similarities are striking....

    so you say my theory is quackery and i say yours is. you really think that you can take a pharmaceutical medicine that'll target and kill your "L form" super bacteria and leave the rest of your body alone. it's impossible to know what knock on affects such meds will have. bacteria and the body's cells are not dissimilar. acidity and leaky gut are fad theories??? been around for yonks. how else would whole allergy triggerring food proteins get into the system, if it weren't for leaky gut??? and pain killers are known to become the source of their own pain...and i haven't mentioned any approaches??? and don't care for links to "improvement stories" from folk i've never met and have no idea as to the validity of such...

    can type anything on a pc screen, doesn't make it so. add to the fact that i know that some folk can "appear" to improve on such treatments....surely if it's real improvement then logically it would continue untill you fully recover? but no they don't....and all the "theories" of how these "evil", cunning bacteria can trick your body and hide where they're difficult to find have come about cos after a couple of years on the treatments people are still not recovered...maybe it's cos the treatment is flawed??? and not the super clever, great at hide and seek L form, gobble gooky, spookily evasive killer nasties you speak of...

    i've no interest in xmrv other than the possibility of it being a diagnosis...anti-retro-virals won't do anything - more targetting of the part at the expense of the whole + big money for big pharma. i got ill overnight after going to the dentist and having mercury fillings put in. i have no fillings now or mercury toxicity but still have m.e. so for me they were the hair that broke the camels back and opened my body up to fungal, viral and bacterial overload. so i'm agreeing with the opportunistic microbial attack, it's logical to me...

    it's the treatment of it we differ on and that's the crux to me. i agree with some of the theory marshall et al put forward and the low g.i. "alkalising!" diet they recommend...but chemical warfare and health in a pill are not treatments to me, rather part of the cause. part of why folk are here. L form will kill me? you're a fear mongerer, prove this happens! i have crohns so know well about pain and inflammation, but i control it through diet and avoidance of toxic forming meds....quote -dr. randolph stone "a pill is a poor excuse for personal effort"...but you know if i thought eating plutonium would cure me, i'd do it. i'm not against all this cos i'm in favour of the natural approach but because it just doesn't work....

    strange how you're both critical and yet in favour of all this, like you've heard all the anti arguments and have adjusted to fill the holes. that this treatment is neither beneficial and even harmful is to me it's a truism. it's actually so jaw droppingly, gapingly obvious, it's a total headscratching misnomer of epic proportions to put it lightly...is there any point speaking against it? will folk who do these treatments, do so regardless of the lack of results? if eradicating l form, cures cfs, then why has no-one recovered and if it was the key, many would have and we'd know about it. so feel to give out more apparent knowledge and medical spin, if anyone's gullible enough to get suckered in then perhaps its a t-shirt they need to get, so as to at least find out what doesn't work or help them recover....hopefully they won't get liver or kidney failure in the process and realise when it's time to quit and move on....you to...peace...
  6. darkrobot

    darkrobot

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    Evidence please. As you say "can type anything on a pc screen, doesn't make it so"

    I am a patient of Dr W (it is good form to refer LLMDs by their initial, as I'm sure you realise), and he has never claimed to cure anything. He does however treat bacterial infections including "lyme-like infections". It is very misleading for you to state he "sells antibiotic cures", that is a phrase you made up yourself.

    He also works fulltime for the NHS as well as treating patients privately, so if he is still ill he is at a very high level of functioning.

    This illness has many different contributary factors, and he is only offering treatment for certain bacterial and parasitic infections, using either conventional or herbal medication. Personally it has helped me a great deal, and I am now at about 95-98%. If that is as good as it gets, I can live with it. It is a massive improvement on the 10-20% I was at just over a year ago. I am doing exercise for pleasure, and wil be back at work soon. Life for me is no longer a desperate struggle to provide myself with basic care, but something to be lived and enjoyed.

    I realise this thread is about the Marshall Protocol, which I have not experienced, so I won't hijack the thread. But I think it's important for people reading to hear all sides of every story when a particular doctor or protocol is being maligned. If I had read the above post before I started treatment, it may have been enough to dissuade me, and for me that is a frightening thought. I have a quality of life back that I thought I'd never experience again. It may not help everybody, and it may not be a cure, but it certainly helps some, myself included.
  7. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Homey,

    It’s obvious you don’t understand L-form infection at all and are extremely jaded with a great amount of misunderstanding. I’ve already posted research showing the biochemical pathways that L forms use to infect neutrophils. You are free to look them up. For more information on L form infections I’ll refer you to CIR’s website which has a good number of well written articles. http://www.chronicillnessrecovery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=153&Itemid=5

    >you really think that you can take a pharmaceutical medicine that'll target and kill your "L form" super bacteria and leave the rest of your body alone. it's impossible to know what knock on affects such meds will have. bacteria and the body's cells are not dissimilar. acidity and leaky gut are fad theories??? been around for yonks. how else would whole allergy triggerring food proteins get into the system, if it weren't for leaky gut??? and pain killers are known to become the source of their own pain...and i haven't mentioned any approaches??? and don't care for links to "improvement stories" from folk i've never met and have no idea as to the validity of such...

    Don’t twist what I’m saying. I meant that it is a fad to believe that food allergies are the culprit for chronic fatigue syndrome. It simply doesn’t fit the evidence. Food allergies don’t depress body temperature, don’t increase 1,25 vitamin D above normal and don’t give immunopathological symptoms when dosed with bacteriostatic drugs. So far there is only one small, unreplicated study in the medical literature by Maes about leaky gut and chronic fatigue and it was only done for a short term (15 months) and used temporary remission as proof of efficacy.(Maes, M. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2008 Dec;29(6):902-10.) Moreover, he didn't even rule out elevated vitamin D1,25 with a blood test and show how the treatment had any effect on that. It is foolish to put so much faith in leaky gut as a cure for chronic fatigue, although if someone has it independently I definitely think it should be addressed.

    When patients are infected with L forms they show symptoms only when their immune systems are strong. When immunity is weak they are asymptomatic for specific immunopathology symptoms. Because of this a temporary reduction of symptoms often indicates the patient is getting worse not better.

    >and all the "theories" of how these "evil", cunning bacteria can trick your body and hide where they're difficult to find have come about cos after a couple of years on the treatments people are still not recovered...maybe it's cos the treatment is flawed??? and not the super clever, great at hide and seek L form, gobble gooky, spookily evasive killer nasties you speak of...

    I covered that in my above post see Faherty’s research. Just because the original Marshall Protocol’s treatment isn’t 100% effective doesn’t mean that L form infections don’t exist. These are two different issues and you need to realize your knowledge gap on the issue or you will be led astray by quacks.

    >if eradicating l form, cures cfs, then why has no-one recovered and if it was the key, many would have and we'd know about it.

    Well you just dismissed CIR’s report of their patient outcomes so until you open your mind, learn more about the science of what is being discussed and either be silent or speak intelligently (if that is possible) I don’t know if you will ever accept any logical arguments about it. Have a good day.

    >L form will kill me? you're a fear mongerer, prove this happens!

    Jason's article summarizes:

    Jason, L. Causes of Death Among Patients With Chronic
    Fatigue Syndrome
    . Health Care for Women International, 27:615–626, 2006..


    "The authors analyzed a memorial list tabulated by the National
    CFIDS Foundation of 166 deceased individuals who had had CFS.
    There were approximately three times more women than men on
    the list. The three most prevalent causes of death were heart failure,
    suicide, and cancer, which accounted for 59.6% of all deaths. The
    mean age of those who died from cancer and suicide was 47.8 and
    39.3 years, respectively, which is considerably younger than those
    who died from cancer and suicide in the general population
    ."

    "The fact that approximately 20% of the sample died of heart failure is of
    importance given the growing evidence of cardiac problems among patients
    with CFS. For example, Streeten and Bell (2000) found that the majority of
    patients with CFS had striking decreases in circulating blood volume. The
    blood vessels in patients with CFS were constricted dramatically, and efforts
    to restore normal volume have met with limited success." (ibid)

    "The present study found that approximately 20% of the sample had died
    from cancer, and this is of theoretical interest given the immune abnormalities
    reported in patients. People with CFS appear to have two basic problems
    with immune function: immune activitation as demonstrated by elevations
    of activated T lymphocytes, including cytotoxic T cells and elevations of
    circulating cytokines; and poor cellular function, with low natural killer
    cell cytotoxicity and frequent immunoglobulin deficiencies (most often IgG1
    and IgG3; Patarca-Montero, Mark, Fletcher, & Klimas, 2000). For example,
    Antoni, Fletcher, Weiss, Maher, Siegel, and Klimas, (2003) found that patients
    with low natural killer cell activity (NKCA) and a state of overactivation of
    lymphocyte subsets (e.g., CD2+CD26+% activation markers) had the greatest
    fatigue intensity and greatest fatigue-related impairments in emotional and
    mental functioning."

    "Another 20% of patients died of suicide, possibly due to the losses
    that patients with this illness experience from family, friends, coworkers,
    and health care workers (Friedberg & Jason, 1998)."​
    Darkrobot,

    Who is Dr. Wright? Is he a Marshall Protocol MD in the UK?
  8. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Dear Fejal,

    Thank you for your full and informed reply!

    I looked into minocycline (QUOTE: "In the the 40 years since the release of minocyclineBacteriostatic antibiotic used by Marshall Protocol patients., the primary MP antibiotic, no significant species have been shown to be resistant to it.") anD found that a number of bacteria are already resistant to it, however.
    Here are a few links:
    http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/short/50/4/1550

    "An increase in the number of multiply resistant ( 3 resistances) staphylococci occurred in 67% of tetracycline-treated and 33% of minocycline-treated patients by the end of the treatment period"
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2133.1990.tb08270.x/abstract

    The articles are clear that bacteria including staphylococci are minocycline resistant.

    This is one of my objections to Marshall. He asserts his "facts" aggressively and reacts to evidence disproving him, not with some research, but merely with belligerence. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that people do this only when they have run out of convincing arguments.
  9. darkrobot

    darkrobot

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    Fejal, Dr W (please just use initials rather than full name, as LLMDs sometimes get hounded by the authorities) is a Lyme-literate doctor in the north of England. He uses both conventional and natural antibiotics (such as Samento) to treat chronic bacterial infections (spirochetes and micrococci) in ME/ CFS patients. He is also prescribing Low Dose Naltrexone for some patients. I don't think he uses any specific protocol, but has his own methods. It seems to yield improvements for some patients but not others, presumably depending on the specific factors contributing the that patient's illness.

    Sadly there are very few doctors in the UK who offer any meaningful help to ME/ CFS patients, the ones who do are really sticking their necks out.

    EDIT: Just noticed you have sent me a PM asking the same question- feel free to PM again if you want more information than I have written here.
  10. hoMEy

    hoMEy

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    i assume being from the uk, you're also on the foggy friends site and aware of the "i've been cured" thread relating to dr. wright's treatments. if he's not aware that people are claiming cure through his treatment then perhaps you might inform so he can put it right. the 1 person who did claim cure provided no transparency to his claim and disappeared never to come back. personally i would still be there siniging it's praises. is it not logical that any real improvement would continue untill recovery, so why does it not. i'm aware that these doctors are very carefull about what they say and claim publicly, cos of risk of malpractise and prosecution >> trio indicted in fake lyme diganosis and cure

    i have noticed the thing bout not using LLMD's and was lead to believe it was because of the controversial nature of the treatments and the fact they maybe reported, though i could be wrong.

    dr. wright is also very carefull not to say he treats lyme as you say...lyme "like", yet he's a lyme literate doctor...it's all a bit hedging about and shady...

    i take your claims of 98% at face value though nobody knows who anyone is on-line................................

    i have few non m.e. friends who could claim 98% full health or what they had 10 years ago.

    i accept that he may not openly sell antibiotic cures and the wording could've been better, like theirs, a little more ambiguous so as not to arise suspicion. 1 in 20 total recovery is the figure banded about on foggy friends and even backed up by mods....until questioned...cure is or has been proclaimed in their name on public forums by their patients...

    obviously you can't do these treatments forever!!? sooner or later you will be back to square one and have to deal with what you have put off and sweapt under the carpet, where it's festering...if it's actual improvement then it would continue if you stopped the treatment, no? truth is it's still there waiting...

    fejal don't twist what i said...i didn't say food allergies are the culprit did i? part of the overall picture for the majority though eh? there is a report on the "wddty" site of a study that showed 90% of m.e.ers to have low or no stomach acid and hence leaky gut and allergies. proteins causing allergies and starches causing acidity...big stress on the immune system all that undigested food.

    original marshall protocol not 100% effective? i wouldn't say it's even 1% affective when you consider what i posted concerning improvement being fake and where did i say L form doesn't exist? and as i didn't say that am i still led astray by quacks...more words in my mouth.

    and be careful...telling me to be silent or speak intelligently is verging on insulting...i see our disussion has descended into bickering and one upmanship and wish no further part...have your sales platform, fejal(?) the thread is yours....strange how this thread is your first postings...
  11. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Athene,

    You're welcome. On a practical level, you have feedback because if whatever anti-bacterial you are taking is working then you get an increase in immunopathology symptoms that decreases in 3-5 days. So if it isn't working you'll pick that up in your symptom tracking. Even if a bacteria became resistant you would know it. Also, consider that the dosing involves multiple antibiotics (up to three at a time) taken consecutively in various combinations so it isn't just one drug, although minocycline is regularly used as a mainstay. So the Eady study you quoted isn't directly applicable.

    Anway, in principle I agree with you we need to take resistance into account and it is important to proceed as quickly as possible which is why I recommend adding specific supplements in addition to the Marshall Protocol. Trevor Marshall's illogical stance against supplements are why I no longer recommend it in the original form. For example, when I added milk thistle to the mix my cycle time decreased by half and I could dose every day. Milk Thistle restores the blocked NF-Kb pathway. Original MP patients not taking the supplements proceed much slower and need much more anti-inflammatory medication because they are omega 3 deficient and not blocking all the pathways. Phospholipidized turmeric (or standard with bioperin) and mangosteen are effective in restoring the other two blocked apoptotic pathways (tumeric for PI3-K but also inhibits NF-Kb for about an hour, mangosteen for caspase-3). These supplements (along with another unlisted one) combined with the Marshall Protocol are called the BALI Protocol (Botnick Accelerated L-form Infection) for its creator Allen Botnick DC, a health professional with CFS who lives in North Carolina, USA.

    For anyone interested in more problems with Trevor Marshall and his Autoimmunity Research group I recommend you read page three "A Summary of the Differences" in this document from his former Board of Directors (who are all medical professionals) who now are in the nonaffiliated Chronic Illness Recovery group.

    http://www.chronicillnessrecovery.org/images/pdf/cirs_unique_service.pdf



    The problem is that these bugs are very hard to kill and if you are infected fighting the infection takes precedence over the risk of antibiotic resistance. I leave it to MDs and pharmacists to determine the best dosing regimen to minimize the risk. We have to work with what we currently have available.
  12. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    You misunderstand hoMey, I’m from the USA and no I haven’t read Wright’s thread. I have no idea what anyone is mentioning him in a thread on the Marshall Protocol. It would be better to start a new thread on him or add to the existing one if it is already created.

    >obviously you can't do these treatments forever!!? sooner or later you will be back to square one and have to deal with what you have put off and sweapt under the carpet, where it's festering...if it's actual improvement then it would continue if you stopped the treatment, no? truth is it's still there waiting...

    That isn’t what the official MP group claims. They claim that at the end of treatment people have a very low bacterial load and have normal functioning. It is recommended that people do a yearly antiobiotic tune up to stay stable. I have already explained the problems with the original Marshall Protocol. Perhaps by blocking more pathways and accelerating the treatment response time the BALI protocol will get better results. The clinical observations of accelerated immunopathology symptom cycles support this.


    >fejal don't twist what i said...i didn't say food allergies are the culprit did i? part of the overall picture for the majority though eh? there is a report on the "wddty" site of a study that showed 90% of m.e.ers to have low or no stomach acid and hence leaky gut and allergies. proteins causing allergies and starches causing acidity...big stress on the immune system all that undigested food.

    As I said before, if it’s present treat it but correlation isn’t causation. Also you didn't acknowlege my point regarding the leaky gut research.

    >and be careful...telling me to be silent or speak intelligently is verging on insulting...i see our disussion has descended into bickering and one upmanship and wish no further part...have your sales platform, fejal(?) the thread is yours....strange how this thread is your first postings...

    hoMey your posts lack any research to back them up and come off as rants. Having CFS means I have less patience to bother with them, but even if I was healthy, half-baked speculation accomplishes nothing but wasting time and distracts us from exploring promising leads in a constructive way.
  13. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi Fejal,

    QUOTE
    "On a practical level, you have feedback because if whatever anti-bacterial you are taking is working then you get an increase in immunopathology symptoms that decreases in 3-5 days. So if it isn't working you'll pick that up in your symptom tracking"
    This seems to be the classic Herxheimer reaction you are describing... but this does not happen to everyone so it is not a reliable test of antibiotic efficacy. And even if it did work, the process you describe would mean that you would only realise an infection had become antibiotic resistant AFTER the event... when it's too late...

    My real point with the antibiotic resistance issue is that taking antibiotics on a stop-start basis doesn't eradicate them, it only encourages them to adapt to new circumstances, becoming stronger. Once you have been doing this for a while, the bugs in you are resistant to the antibiotic you have been taking. When your bugs infect someone else, that person is in the same boat - the antibiotics you have been taking will not kill that infection, so they have to take something stronger, for longer, at a higher dose. What if that person is a three year old child? What if that person has liver disease? They cannot take those antibiotics. They might die.

    I personally have in infection which is now resistant to absolutely all drugs which are used against it. For the first few years I trusted doctors who tinkered around with inadequate doses of various drugs. Now nothing will work, even though I have taken some of them at three times the safe dose and for about five times longer than is safe. I have had it for 26 years, and anyone I infect will also have the same, impossible to cure version.

    So when people undergo a treatment which is inadequate for the infections they are carrying, it is not just their busines, it is really a matter of public safety.
  14. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Supposedly the L forms are so slow growing that they don't reproduce fast enough to develop resistance, especially if they are being attacked by bacteriostatic drugs and the immune system is activated enough to kill them. According to the proponents, the immune system eventually gets strong enough, and the bacteria concentration low enough to operate without benecar (and I assume the other supplements). I think you may be jumping the gun on assuming it is a problem. Also, the doses are quite low and on the original MP are pulsed. You can read the link I put up earlier on it.
  15. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Here's an update. I quit the turmeric yesterday (9/12/2010) because I noticed that at the end of the dose my body was having higher body temperature (beginning dose 96F to 98F end of dose) so I suspected that the NF-kB surpression was too much. Also, it occurs to me that the stuffy nose was probably due to too much mast cell activation (PI-3 pathway) indicating that Ithis pathway isn't inhibited so don't need this supplement. Within a few hours of stopping the dose my body temperature continues to improve (but relies on a constant level of olmesartan 40 gm Q6-8H) and my analgesic and anti-inflammatory dosing was decreased by 1/3 due to less inflammatory pain. The following day I continued to note improvements including: lymph nodes went from very enlarged to half the size, cardio endurance and perceived energy increased by 50% and sleep quality much deeper and enhanced. Conclusion-the turmeric was making me worse so I will discontinue it.

    Placebo effect? No (placebos don't change body temperature). Virus, no.

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