Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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MAO SNP And Phospholipids (PC, PS)/Questions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Changexpert, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. Changexpert

    Changexpert Senior Member

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    People with homozygous MAO SNP (MAO +/+) are deficient in monoamine oxidase. One old study revealed that in Schizophrenics, people with low levels of MAO activity, have elevated phosphatidylserine (PS) and decreased phosphatidylcholine (PC). The study mainly focuses on MAO B, which is not the one we get from Genetic Genie, but draws conclusion on an assumption that MAO B is related to total MAO activity level. The study's hypothesis was that PS inhibits MAO B, which lowers MAO activity, as seen in Schizophrenics. (1) This is highly debatable as another study shows that only MAO B is correlated to Schizophrenia. (2)

    On the other hand, there's another study showing that certain forms of PC can cause oxidative damage.

    Damaging reactions due to radicals generated in a membrane phase were significantly accelerated when the membrane was peroxidizable (soybean phosphatidylcholine) rather than nonperoxidizable (saturated dimyristoyl phosphatidylcholine).
    (3)

    Lastly, one study showed that metabolism of PC can lead to cardiovascular disease. I am not really sure how much more likely consumption of PC would lead to stroke or heart failure, but it is something worthwhile to consider. (4)

    Phospholipids are often praised as food for brain, which makes me think that it is strongly tied to neurotransmitters somehow. Unfortunately, I am not sure on a few things and hopefully I will get some responses!

    1. What is the relationship between phospholipids and neurotransmitters. Do phospholipids produce or help produce more neurotransmitters?
    2. I realize that PS and PC are two different lipids, but I do not know what effects each of them has on the brain. Based on the study I've quoted, I am guessing that PS and PC have opposite reactions to the brain. Is that assumption wrong?
    3. If PS is tied to serotonin, which neurotransmitter is PC tied to? I am just confused how low level of MAO can elevate PS while decreasing PC.
    4. How is PS tied to cortisol levels? I've seen mixed comments on PS and cortisol levels, depending on the state of the cortisol and the time PS is taken (morning vs evening).
    5. How is PC tied to cortisol levels? I couldn't find a consensus on this either.
    6. Lastly, if you have MAO ++, have you tried high doses of PS or PC? What effects did they have on you?

    I would sincerely appreciate feedback and responses to the question. Thank you so much in advance.
     
    Waldemath, ahmo, helen1 and 1 other person like this.
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Dopamine?
    I read that PC can calm +/+COMTers down.
     
  3. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

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    They aren't deficient, they just produce less. It's a very common and normal variation.
     
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  4. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Acetylcholine.

    Acetylcholine activates the HPA axis.
     
  5. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @Changexpert As someone who is MAO +/+ and who took PC for several years I found your post very interesting
    Have you found out any more about this since you posted this back in April?
     
  6. Changexpert

    Changexpert Senior Member

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    @juniemarie
    I have found some answers to the questions I posted, but my understanding on this topic is very superficial, so feel free to scratch your head if you see something out of place. There are three molecules of interest, phosphatidylcholine (PC), acetylcholine (ACh), and choline. PC is converted to GPC, then to choline, where the conversion rate is around 13% and even lower for lecithin at 4.5% (1). Then choline is converted to ACh after it crosses blood-brain barrier (BBB). Although PC's conversion rate to choline is low, PC is also involved in membrane repair, antioxidant effect, and even liver function (2). It is important to keep in mind that PC to choline conversion is a cycle, just like other biochemical reactions in the body.

    I have tried lecithin in the past, but lecithin is a horrible way of supplementing PC. Chirs Kresser wrote an interesting article about consuming lecithin and processed soy products in general (3). The consensus is that lecithin does not contain soy protein, so it should be safe for people with soy allergies. However, some people argue that soy, especially processed soy like lecithin, is a phytoestrogen potentially increasing estrogen level, which can be problematic for people with high estrogen. I realize that there is still no consensus on the benefit/harm caused by phytoestrogen. In my opinion, even though I am a male with inefficient estrogen metabolism, I feel more comfortable with naturally occurring hormone (estrogen) than phytoestrogen, so I stay away from food or supplements that contain soy.

    On the other hand, I have taken citicholine, which is an intermediary product of PC. Citicholine is broken down into choline and cytidine. Cytidine is converted to uridine. While citicholine increases uridine and choline serum levels, it does not increase cytidine level. Uridine level along with omega 3 level are rate limiting factors for PC conversion, so increased uridine level results in higher PC level as well, given enough omega 3 fatty acids are consumed (4).

    Some people prefer to take alpha GPC, which is one step closer to choline than PC (5). There was a study that showed efficacy of alpha GPC in increasing growth hormone during resistance training. Since growth hormone is released less as aging proceeds, increased GH can potentially have anti-aging effect, which might be beneficial for some of us (6).

    Also, alpha GPC and citicholine are cholinergic and related to dopamine release, dopamine receptors, and dopamine densities (7, 8). I think these two websites do an excellent job in explaining why choline supplement is inferior to alpha GPC and citicholine (9, 10).

    I think increasing PC level is important based on the studies in the original post, but direct consumption of PC does not seem to be ideal. Personally, I am going to stick with citicholine for now because it is a precursor of PC and much closer to PC than alpha GPC. Also, alpha GPC is related to raising dopamine levels while citicholine enhances dopamine receptors. Since MAO contributes to both serotonin and catecholamine (dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine) breakdown, I personally would not feel comfortable with increased dopamine level.

    "Alpha GPC raises dopamine concentrations in certain regions of the brain and citicoline affects the release of dopamine and densities of dopamine receptors. These multiple dopaminergic mechanisms of alpha GPC and citicoline may contribute to their nootropic benefits."
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I switched to citicoline a few months ago. My body likes it, requests more when I'm feeling stressed. I was trying to decided between Alpha and citicoline, there's a thread entitled Which Choline from a few months agao, maybe February, with some comments by adreno.
     
  8. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    It was my understanding that PS lowers cortisol. I made the mistake, having undiagnosed secondary adrenal insufficiency, of trying to use PS (in a balanced complex with PC, I think by Source Naturals) to activate my HPA axis. I'm just lucky I didn't kill myself. I was sick, so sick. Didn't sleep for a week. Then I decided to stop using it and slept some. (But as my adrenals weakened, I kept going downhill, so it was really a preview until I got my lab results read differently and treatment, which has probably kept me alive.)
     
  9. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @Changexpert Just wanted to let you know that PC also comes in the sunflower version…no soy.
    This brain chemistry stuff is such a complex bucket of worms to me. It freaks me out to even try stuff for MAO because mine can go out of balance so easily and mysteriously.

    Like when I tried lithium orotate I got depressed even with a low dose. And when I tried rhodiola, cause I thought it would help support my adrenals I slept for 3 days.
    Now I'm giving the FMN a try, will report back in a a week or so.
     
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  10. xena

    xena Senior Member

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    @ahmo about how much citicoline are you taking?
     
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @xena I'm using about 250mg, in AM. Another dose if I self-test + in evening, when I've done extra activity, or stress. I've switched from this product to pure powder from an ebay shop.
     
    xena likes this.

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