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Making sense of fatigue - Julia Newton editorial in Occupational Medicine

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by oceanblue, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    Recent piece available in full at the Occupational Medicine.

    I was rather disappointed by this:

    but oddly Simon Wessely didn't seem to like it (only partial text available).

    'enjoy'
  2. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Would be nice to be able to read the reply.
  3. helsbells

    helsbells Senior Member

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    It sounds to me like he just doesn't like anyone attempting to divorce the mind body connection. Otherwise he becomes redundant, or relegated to an appropriate supportive role. My NHS phych. was the same he just wouldn't have that your state of mind didn't influence your health no matter how many times I tried to explain it was the opposite I reacted to something, or experienced dysautonomia, my tissues were being starved of oxygen therefore I was physiologically being put into fight or flight so it sounds to me like he is just saying the same old thing. Thanks for posting this though, she wouldn't see me and I was wondering what her approach was and now I know this is treatment I have access to elsewhere so thanks for that :D
  4. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    It's a bit abstract. I know she uses various drugs that aren't mentioned in the piece. I would be interested in seeing the full Simon Wessely reply too.
  5. Desdinova

    Desdinova Senior Member

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    So would I. But if I was to guess it would be something along the lines of

    Blah Blah Blah Blah........ Such ideas are a Dangerous line of thought...... Blah Blah Blah Blah......... reinforces or encourages false beliefs and notions in patients as to their illness and symptoms.... Blah Blah Blah Blah...... offers them false hope.... Blah Blah Blah Blah...... and puts patients health at risk by taking them off the path to improved health via the processes and treatments that are proven to work GET, CBT and pharmaceuticals.... Blah Blah Blah Blah......
  6. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    Yes. :D
    The thing is that too many comments like that could influence/intimidate her a bit with regard to ME/CFS. "Power" is centralised for ME/CFS in the UK with the clinical champions and services. Also treatments are only supposed to the be the ones that NICE recommends [GET and GET-based CBT]. She operates with one part of her in the system but also does a lot outside the system.
  7. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    Not especially helpful for ME/CFS because of the view that this is not a distinct disease but merely the extreme end of a bell curve. But many good points, especially sleep disturbance and ANS dysfunction and that psychology is not the only explanation (and I really do love the warning to be careful not to fail before you begin, and I love it all the better since Harvey and Wessely hate it... she who finds herself "the enemy of [he who chose to be] my enemy is my friend" Sun Tzu's Art of War).

    I'm really happy that someone is looking into CF and IF. All those people in the middle of the bell curve do deserve some intervention. :thumbsup: Sometime when I have some brain cells I think I'll write the correspondence author and thank her for this (and send her some info about the particular disease of ME).
  8. helsbells

    helsbells Senior Member

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    Yes I suppose it could be read like that Wesseleys veiled attempt to take power from anyone who is positing an alternative hypothesis to himself - he would be particularly concerned (threatened) as she works within the NHS were he is used to the monopoly. It is amazing how vigilant he is and how quickly he jumps on these things.
  9. helsbells

    helsbells Senior Member

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    I did try to find this out as she wouldn't see me.
  10. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    That's brilliant! Perfectly sums up how things should be...
  11. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    Both the ME Association (MEA) in the UK and ME Research UK (MERUK) have funded biomedical research projects by Julia Newton.

    1. The MEA have posted the above article by Dr Newton on their website too, with the following comment:

    "NB: The MEA Ramsay Research Fund is funding Professor Newton to carry out research into muscle function at a cellular level in ME/CFS."

    2. The link below from MERUK shows recently completed projects.

    If you scroll down to the 6th and 8th project, you will find Julia Newton's projects relating to POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia) and Autonomic Dysfunction in ME/CFS.

    http://www.meresearch.org.uk/research/projects/completed.html
  12. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

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    Here is the letter.

    The references quote rather messily I'm afraid.
  13. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    That's why I was surprised that her editorial should doubt the existence of ME as a separate illness:

    And thanks for the letter text, snow leopard.
  14. Desdinova

    Desdinova Senior Member

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    The UK government has hidden behind the mind body defense for ME/CFS for a long time. This could be a preparation to have something in line to build upon and roll with should the campaign to stop XMRV and other MLV’s fail. This way it turns out to be body mind (not the other way around which as others have pointed out has Weasel and Co. so upset) but is just a part of the Chronic Fatigue spectrum.

    Since Chronic Fatigue is caused and found in relations to many disorders they can continue to downplay and deny the seriousness of this Disorder. And keep pushing the tools already set up for ME/CFS GET, CBT, AD’s, Sleep aids etc. When the ME/CFS community protests and insists that they the UK government and others are downplaying the seriousness and severity of the illness the government can play them off as being Whiners obsessed with their illness. Who think that their illness is more serious than any and all other disorders (They’re Special ) thus they’re selfish and blow the severity of our illness out of proportion.
  15. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    References for Harvey et al. letter

    References for Harvey et al. letter

  16. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    Newton and Jones reply

    Newton and Jones reply

  17. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    I liked these bits in the Newton and Jones reply:

    --

  18. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Their reply has got bite.

    I wish Wessely would have then replied again. I feel like a lot of what's gone wrong with the way CFS has been treated is because there's not been enough of the sort of relentless debate that forces people to clarify their arguments to the nth degree. It's easy to sound vaguely sophisticated and enlightened for 1000 words and then go back to being a quack for the rest of your career.
  19. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    I think the problem with the current paper is that the authors wanted to highlight the physical side of fatigue; however, they also didn't want to be too non-psychological and leave themselves open for criticism. The easiest way to do this was "give in" a bit on "CFS/ME".

    But I think Julia Newton has produced some really good research on ME/CFS - the sort of research we really need. She has also a collection of studies which again is good i.e. rather than a research group doing one but not building on it.

    I particularly liked this one:
    http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...al-regulation-by-.......&highlight=phosphorus which ties together muscle abnormalities and the autonomic system which have often been investigated separately. I will admit that I don't full understand it (one excuse is that I stopped studying biology aged 16). I have to admit I have a soft spot for any research finding "muscle abnormalities" particularly any associated with exercise.
  20. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    Excellent point

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