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Magnesium!

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by Kimsie, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    My 17 year old son was suffering from fatigue for a year and a half, and I am sure that he would have ended up with either chronic fatigue or ended up with being depressed for the rest of his life if we hadn't made some discoveries.

    Here is our latest discovery: Magnesium deficiency will cause symptoms of deficiency of the other cofactors of the enzymes that use magnesium, (and there are a lot of those) even if there isn't a deficiency in the cofactor.

    After extreme fatigue for a year and a half my son started taking 5 mg of methylfolate a day and it was like magic; within 3 hours he felt much better. However, what we have learned lately is that he was actually deficient in magnesium, not folate, and since magnesium is required for the MAT enzyme to transform methionine into SAMe, low magnesium will slow the methionine cycle and thus also slow the folate cycle – leading to symptoms of low folate. (It will also affect the other products dependent on the methylation cycle, such as homocysteine and SAMe levels, and glutathione production, and these have their own set of symptoms.)

    Unfortunately, you have to be extremely low on magnesium before the deficiency will show up on blood or hair tests, and our experience in our family is that low magnesium will lead to symptoms long before any testing will show it.

    So our son started taking methylfolate and he was feeling less and less fatigued, but then he started having symptoms of depression. I now realize that by pushing the methylation cycle, I was drawing magnesium away from other enzymes and adding to his problems. (I should mention that he was getting a supplement with about the RDA of magnesium at this time.) The depression got worse as his stores of magnesium were more and more depleted and the enzymes for getting rid of acetaldehyde and histamine were affected, because histamine was what directly caused his depression.

    I was giving him supplements to support the affected pathways such as niacin, folate, b12 and B6 and later pantothenic acid, but having these pathways running top speed caused a greater need for magnesium that was beyond what his body could absorb, no matter how much I gave him. The answer was to stop all of the B vitamins and keep supplementing magnesium and then his body was able to regulate all his pathways with much less magnesium, and no bowel tolerance, and his symptoms magically went away. (Symptoms caused more indirectly would take more time to go away.)

    So how did my son become so deficient in magnesium? It all boils down to water supply. There is usually plenty of magnesium in groundwater, but first we lived for 5 years in a house with a water softener, which removes all of the magnesium, and then we lived in a home with a water neutralizer that was using magnesium oxide at first, and there was no problem with that, but then only calcium carbonate was available locally and we put it in with no thought to the fact that we were adding a lot of calcium to our diet, but without magnesium to balance.

    So there are two morals to this story: Check to see if you are getting magnesium in your water supply, and if you are having trouble with methylation or any other biological pathway in the body that uses magnesium (there are about 300) supplement first with magnesium and then if magnesium alone doesn't do the trick, add other supplements such as B vitamins, because if you are low on magnesium and you push those pathways you will only increase your difficulty in getting enough magnesium without having bowel tolerance and this will lead to problems in other pathways and a myriad of symptoms depending on a person's genetic and environmental factors.

    I think that magnesium deficiency can show up with a great variety of symptoms and my son didn't show any of the magnesium symptoms that are usually talked about such as muscle spasms or cramps. He has one copy of MTHFR C677T and I guess that is probably why fatigue was his first symptom, because he has a weakness in folate metabolism and low magnesium will slow methylation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  2. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    thank you.

    Such a coherent complex.
    I had not realized.
    I will up my Mg.

    What amount works for your son, may I ask?
     
  3. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    I just learned something new about magnesium last night and it's pretty incredible, I think. I was researching ways to get more magnesium into the body and I came across a site which told about how to take it rectally and the doctor who was talking about it said that she thought it was as effective as the injections in some people so I decided to try it myself as an experiment to see what effect it would have on me. I took about 500 mg of elemental magnesium in the form of magnesium chloride in sea minerals and after about 1 hour or maybe a little more I started to have rumblings in my upper intestine and all through my intestine and my blood pressure shot up and then a short while later I got a headache.

    I have seen several people here who have commented on how magnesium shots or even orally gave them headaches and I think I know why. I have had this same feeling before when I experimented with taking 5 HTP and I think it is because magnesium can push the reaction to make serotonin and dopamine, I guess because it is a cofactor in the production of aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase, which is the enzyme used in the production of both dopamine and serotonin. This would explain why my son always feels better when he takes magnesium to bowel tolerance, because his depression is caused by levels of these neurotransmitters being too low during the day. I had thought that it helped because the magnesium was helping some other reactions, and it might help that way, too. It's confusing because magnesium is used in soooo many reactions in the body.

    However, I can tell without a doubt that a sudden burst of magnesium increases my serotonin and probably my dopamine, too, because I am getting the same feeling I had when I tried taking L dopa. I already have enough serotonin and dopamine in my body so I have learned that things that increase serotonin and dopamine make me feel worse, not better. Serotonin syndrome symptoms include headache and high blood pressure and muscle twitching, which I am having in my calves right now. And I can't sleep and for me that is a sign that I have too much of the catecholamines, dopamine, etc.

    It is always assumed that magnesium causes bowel tolerance by bowel irritation or by drawing water into the bowel, but I think that it may actually cause diarrhea by increasing the serotonin levels in the bowel lining and serotonin controls the motility of the bowel.

    So for people like me, who already have enough serotonin and dopamine, (and I think it is likely that COMT downregulations, of which I have two, increase these side effects of taking magnesium,) it is difficult to take enough magnesium without causing side effects. Since the body should be able to adjust the serotonin production if it doesn't have such a sudden push, the answer is probably to gradually increase the amount of magnesium taken and use time released magnesium to have a constant steady increase over a period of days to allow the body to adjust without causing these symptoms of high serotonin.

    I should mention that I don't know if I am low on magnesium, I was just testing to see if magnesium would be well absorbed in the bowel, and now that I have discovered this, I am not sure whether my son is low, although I think there is a very good chance that he is. I am taking him to be tested tomorrow. I guess you have to test the amount of magnesium in the red blood cells, because the serum levels don't tell anything about low magnesium until it is extremely low.

    It's interesting to note that my son who has schizophrenia, who by the way is doing really well off medications for seven weeks taking these supplements that I figured out due to the problems my other son is having, said that at first he was getting bowel tolerance from magnesium, but then it went away after a while. (he takes it 3 times a day) So I guess you can get adjusted to it if you keep the levels pretty steady. (He has double mutations on the COMT downregulations)
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  4. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi @Kimsie do all forms of magnesium work?
     
  5. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    I think that some forms are better than others for some people. My son with schizophrenia was taking Magnesium oxide and it worked fine for him. Right now he is using magnesium citrate. We are using magnesium glycinate. We are using magnesium chloride for rectal administration because it is in the sea minerals that we already have on hand and it is already a liquid, plus it gives some other minerals.

    Some forms might be more likely to cause diarrhea. I suppose that some forms might cause diarrhea from irritation instead of from increasing serotonin, but it might be hard to tell the difference. I just know it was serotonin for me, because I was also getting other symptoms that I have gotten from taking things that increase neurotransmitters.

    For myself, I am taking small amounts frequently through the day and backing off when I feel my stomach rumbling a little. That way I don't get too much side effects and I am hoping that I will gradually be able to increase the amount I can tolerate as my body adjusts the amounts of the enzymes to make neurotransmitters. I am giving my husband the rectal magnesium at bedtime and it helps him sleep better. He does get bowel tolerance from it, though, and I am giving him about 500 mg of elemental magnesium. The last few years he has been having trouble staying asleep and we think it is because all of us have low magnesium due to not having it in the water for most of 12 years and having calcium in our water for 3 of the last 5 years. My husband and I have been taking the sea minerals during that time, but not our sons. But even taking the sea minerals was not enough to overcome the effects of the calcium in our water supply. We have switched back to using magnesium oxide in our water neutralizer.

    I think that once the magnesium levels get below a certain point it becomes much harder to reverse by supplementing. The cells have to use energy to get the magnesium into the cells, because the cells maintain a level that is much higher than the serum, and the lack of magnesium makes the cells have less energy - ATP, the energy unit, has to be joined to magnesium in order to be used. So it is a vicious cycle. Raising the level in the serum should make it easier for the cells to get it in but there is a limit to how high you can raise it because if it goes too high it can be fatal and the body gets rid of it in the urine more and more quickly as the levels go up.

    Here is some more information I got off the web:

    The reported ranges of red cell and serum magnesium levels by the atomic absorption method are, respectively, 4.6 to 7 mg and 1.7 to 2.3 mg/100 ml(2).

    A study comparing normal women with women with PMS found that the amount of serum magnesium was the same in both groups but the normal women had 4.5 mg/100ml in the red cells and the PMS women had 3.1 mg/100ml.

    Dangerous levels of magnesium in the serum are less than 1 and more than 4.9 mg/dL A 7 year old boy died with a serum level of 41.2 mg/100ml after his parents gave him an enema with an unknown amount of epson salt in it. Apparently the parents just dumped in a bunch of epson salt without even measuring it or knowing how much magnesium was in it. So it is clear that it can be absorbed in the colon, but you have to know the amount you are giving and give a reasonable amount.

    Here is another one:

    Whether the measurement of blood cell magnesium is necessarily the best test to evaluate response to magnesium infusion is uncertain. Arnold et al.5 evaluated the magnesium status in erythrocytes and mononuclear blood cells in 15 critically ill patients whose magnesium depletion had been diagnosed by the magnesium-load test. They found no significant difference in plasma, red cell, and mononuclear blood cell magnesium levels between magnesium depleted and nondepleted groups, and concluded that a diagnosis of magnesium depletion cannot be excluded despite normal values in plasma, erythrocytes, or mononuclear blood cells.

    In other words, having normal results on the red cell test does not mean that you don't have magnesium deficiency, but the red cell test might show a deficiency if you have one.

    Apparently, only the magnesium-load test can for sure show a deficiency, and that one is expensive and time consuming.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  6. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member

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    Interesting. thanks for sharing this Kimsie. :balanced:
     
  7. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    I was wondering if any of you who have taken magnesium by injection or by IV have ever gotten bowel tolerance from it? What doses have you taken, with or without bowel tolerance, and was it IV or was it an injection?

    I have been mulling over this and I think that it might be that when you take magnesium orally the cells in the lining of the gut that produce serotonin are first in line to get that magnesium, and so it gives them a push to produce serotonin which causes bowel tolerance before the rest of the magnesium has had a chance to make it into the blood stream to get to the other cells.

    So logically, if this is true, then taking it by injection would be less likely to produce bowel tolerance, because the cells lining the gut would have only the same exposure to the magnesium as the other cells in the body, instead of having a higher exposure.

    It also stands to reason that if this is true, that taking magnesium rectally, without taking it orally, would get more into the system without producing bowel tolerance. When I took it rectally the other night I had already taken some a couple of times that day orally. I wonder now what would have happened if I had not taken any orally that day. Perhaps I would have just gotten the other symptoms, and not bowel tolerance.

    If this is true, then rectal administration would be considerably more effective in getting magnesium to the cells of the whole body than oral administration, but it should be given instead of oral administration, or the person will still get bowel tolerance because the enterochromaffin cells in the gut already have a lot of magnesium from the oral dose and it only takes a little more in the blood to push them into making a lot of serotonin.

    I already gave my son 200 mg of magnesium orally this morning, but I am going to still give him some rectally to try to test this. Tomorrow I think I will just give it rectally and see how it goes. I can't do this one on myself because of the serotonin syndrome type symptoms I get from sudden large doses of magnesium.

    This is just my thoughts and theories as they are developing. Maybe they will help someone.
     
  8. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Hi folks :)

    My doc is interested in trying me on IV magnesium (yay) but she is VERY SLOW to get around to things, usually several months. Meanwhile, my bag of Ancient Minerals is about to run out, so I have a question for y'all.

    Have you found any difference, in topical application, between forms of magnesium? Is magnesium chloride better than, say, citrate for skin spray? Or is it just hype?
     
  9. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    Nila, there is a thread going on about this:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-minerals.13002/#post-424107

    You'll also find on the Ancient Mineral website that the bag(I'm assuming you mean bath flakes) is weaker than the more concentrated gel and oil.

    It is not hype, they did a study that I provided on the link above. I've taken magnesium and taurine injections for years, years ago, and I feel the mg chloride gel is just as effective.
     
  10. Soundthealarm21

    Soundthealarm21 Senior Member

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    @Kimsie

    Very interesting read. How much magnesium are you talking about?

    Right now i'm taking 1600 mg of magnesium citrate a day. Plus what ever magnesium is in the rest of my supplements and diet.
     
  11. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  12. Soundthealarm21

    Soundthealarm21 Senior Member

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    That's odd. I experience no problems taking 1600 mg. I have loose and watery stools, but that was before I started higher magnesium supplementation. It started when I started taking digestive enzymes. I believe it is helping move fat soluble toxins from the liver.

    I see my doctor on the 13th and I'm sure we'll have a big talk about magnesium.
     
  13. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    IIUC, it's pretty normal that some people's gut can handle it and some cannot. I was this way about magnesium for decades before I got sick
     

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