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Magnesium, methyl trap and lyme

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Helander, May 5, 2014.

  1. Helander

    Helander

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    Hi everyone. I got some questions that I would like some help to shed light on.

    1. I found this quote from Freddd in another thread:
    "The first indication of not having enough magnesium might be b12 stops working (...) A lot of people find magnesium helps and some find that it is a critical cofactor and unblocks b12."

    Would that mean that if you don't take magnesium/too little magnesium/wrong form om magnesium with your methylation protocol, you might go into methyl trap since the b12 won't work and you take high dose of folate? That would mean a methyl trap situation, right? Or is Freddd refering to something else?

    2. I have lyme, babesia, erlichia, cpn...(me and ticks don't get along). If the methylation block comes from those diseases, would that automatically mean that once I've treated those infections the methylation block will lift? Or do the infections and methylation block live separate lifes?
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    My issue is also with chronic lyme disease and it does make things pretty complicated, even with methylation. For one as long as it is in your system and active it will interfere with your hormones, thyroid, enzyme processes, cellular production, and anything else potentially. Not that this all happens at once, they are just possibilities that occur when this infection is running amok in our system.

    You should also look into pyroluria as some people develop a secondary form of it from lyme and this can indeed cause issues with methylation. For magnesium just try to get supplemental form to raise your levels, topical versions work better because you can get much higher doses, with better absorption. The big issue for you and was with me is low potassium. Since you are so depleted in magnesium you do not hold onto potassium very well, then on top of it you use a methylation program that depletes these potassium storages even further. You will definitely need to pay attention and watch out for this as we are very susceptible to hypokalemia as a result.

    I take at least 3000g of K+ supplementation a day and that still causes symptoms so it is important to work out doses that work with you and without putting you into a hyperkalemia state either. The issues for you would stem from improper absorption of the cobalt because of the magnesium, magnesium is also required to make the necessary cell nutrients out of methionine too.

    Have you ever gotten a gene test to see your COMTS? that would put you at a much better spot of things you could try and do.
  3. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Jerusalem, Israel
    Rich proposed a link between Lyme and CFS, through methylation block :

    PROPOSED LINK BETWEEN LYME DISEASE AND CFS*
    Rich Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.
    Independent Researcher and Consultant

    [LYMEINFO NOTE: Dr. Van Konynenburg is a proponent of the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block hypothesis for the pathogenesis of CFS. To read more about this theory and treatment, see the links to the left of this page.]

    Review of the Glutathione Depletion-Methylation Cycle Block (GD-MCB) Hypothesis for CFS [1]

    1. The person inherits a genetic predisposition (polymorphisms in several of certain genes) toward developing CFS. (This genetic factor is more important for the sporadic cases than for the cluster cases of CFS.)
    2. The person then experiences some combination of a variety of possible stressors (physical, chemical, biological, psychological/emotional) that place demands on glutathione.
    3. Glutathione levels drop, producing oxidative stress, removing protection from B12, allowing toxins to accumulate, and shifting the immune response to Th2.
    4. Toxins react with B12, lowering the rate of formation of methylcobalamin. Lack of sufficient methylcobalamin inhibits methionine synthase, placing a partial block in the methylation cycle.
    5. Sulfur metabolites drain through the transsulfuration pathway excessively, pass through sulfoxidation, and are excreted.
    6. A vicious circle is established between the methylation cycle block and glutathione depletion, and the disorder becomes chronic.
    Depletion of glutathione by Borrelia burgdorferi

    1. Bb requires cysteine for its metabolism [2].
    2. Cysteine diffuses passively into Bb from its host, i.e. there is no active transporter protein [2].
    3. Bb uses cysteine in the synthesis of several of its essential enzymes: Osp A, Osp B, CoASH, a hemolysin, and others [2,3].
    4. Bb does not use glutathione for its redox control. Instead, it uses reduced Coenzyme A (CoASH) [4].
    5. Cysteine is the rate-limiting amino acid for the synthesis of glutathione in humans, so that depletion of cysteine will produce depletion of glutathione [5].
    6. Bb lowers the cysteine and glutathione levels in its human host, and inhibits the activity of glutathione peroxidase [6].
    7. Low glutathione and low activity of glutathione peroxidase allow a rise in hydrogen peroxide concentration and oxidative stress [7].
    8. Elevation of hydrogen peroxide causes Bb to assume its cyst form [8], in which it is less vulnerable to antibiotics [9].
    New hypothesis for a link between Lyme disease and chronic fatigue syndrome

    1. Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) deplete glutathione in the host.
    2. For a person who is genetically susceptible to developing CFS, this provides a link to the GD-MCB hypothesis for CFS and is one of the possible routes into this disorder.
    3. If Bb and its biotoxin were not eliminated, Lyme disease and CFS would coexist in the host, and this would constitute "chronic Lyme disease."
    4. If Bb and its biotoxin [10] were eliminated, but the methylation cycle block continued, the person would continue to be ill with CFS. This would constitute "post-Lyme disease syndrome," which would be analogous to the other post-infective fatigue syndromes [11].
    5. If Bb and its biotoxin were eliminated, and the methylation cycle block was lifted, I believe it is likely that the person would become well.
    In addition,

    6. Perhaps the Borrelia burgdorferi toxin is one of the toxins that will react with vitamin B12. Mold toxins have been implicated in such reactions, but no data were cited [12,13].
    References

    1. Van Konynenburg, R.A., "Glutathione Depletion.Methylation Cycle Block, A Hypothesis for the Pathogenesis of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome," poster paper, 8th Intl. IACFS Conf. on CFS, Fibromyalgia, and Other Related Illnesses, Fort Lauderdale, FL, January 10-14, 2007 LINK.
    2. Sambri, V., and Cevenini, R., Incorporation of cysteine by Borrelia burgdorferi and Borrelia hersii, Can. J. Microbiol. 38: 1016-1021 (1992).
    3. Williams, L.R., and Austin, F.E., Hemolytic activity of Borrelia burgdorferi, Infection and Immunity 60(8): 3224-3230 (1992).
    4. Boylan, J.A., Hummel, C.S., Benoit, S., Garcia-Lara, J., Treglown-Downey, J., Crane, E.J., III, and Gherardini, F.C., Borrelia burgdorferia bb0728 encodes a coenzyme A disulphide reductase whose function suggests a role in intracellular redox and the oxidative stress response, Molecular Microbiol. 59(2), 475-486 (2006).
    5. Griffith, O.W., Biologic and pharmacologic regulation of mammalian glutathione synthesis, Free Radic Biol Med. 1999 Nov;27(9-10):922-35.
    6. Pancewicz, S.A., Skrzydleweska, E., Hermanowska-Szpakowicz, T., Zajkowska, J., and Kondrusik, M., Role of reactive oxygen species (ROS) in patients with erythema migrans, an early manifestation of Lyme borreliosis, Med. Sci. Monit. 7(6), 1230-1235
    7. Levine, S.A., and Kidd, P.M., Antioxidant Adaptation, Its Role in Free Radical Pathology, Allergy Research Group, San Leandro, CA (1985).
    8. Murgia, R., and Cinco, M., Induction of cystic forms by different stress conditions in Borrelia burgdorferi, APMIS 112, 57-62 (2004).
    9. Kersten, A., Poitschek, C., Rauch, S., and Aberer, E., Effects of penicillin, ceftriaxone and doxycycline on morphology of Borrelia burgdorferi, Antimicrob. Agents Chemother. 39(5), 1127-1133 (1995).
    10. Shoemaker, R., Schaller, J., and Schmidt, P., Mold Warriors, Gateway Press, Baltimore (2005).
    11. Hickie, I. Davenport, T., Wakefield, D, Vollmer-Conna, U., Cameron, B., Vernon, S.D., Reeves, W.C., Lloyd, A., Dubbo Infection Outcomes Study Group, Post-infective and chronic fatigue syndromes precipitated by viral and non-viral pathogens: prospective cohort study, BMJ. 2006 Sep 16;333(7568):575. Epub 2006 Sep 1.
    12. Anyanwu, E.C., Morad, M., and Campbell, A.W., Metabolism of mycotoxins, intracellular functions of vitamin B12, and neurological manifestations in patients with chronic toxigenic mold exposures. A review, ScientificWorldJournal 4, 736-745 (2004).
    13. Anyanwu, E.C., and Kanu, I., Biochemical impedance on intracellular functions of vitamin B12 in chronic toxigenic mold exposures, ScientificWorldJournal 7:1649-57 (2007).
    *The author has kindly given his permission to reprint this article at LymeInfo.
  4. Helander

    Helander

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    I take about 700 mg magnesium (mix between oxide, malate, lactate and some other form) and around 1000 mg potassium or as much it takes to clear the symptoms of low potassium.

    The reason I'm asking is because I get methylation going perfectly and feel almost cured. For two weeks that is. Then all of a sudden I get what feels like some form of weird methyl trap with skin burning, stinging, extreme fatigue, insomnia, weakness etc and I'm back to square one. I then lower the folate dose and slowly feel better and better til I reach the same level again and bang, methyl trap again (or whatever it is, I'm just guessing). But since I take 5mg b12 I don't see how that could be methyl trap, if it isn't that magnesium deficiency blocks the b12 like Fredd mention.

    I've ordered some magnesium oil now to try, thanks!

    I have not done any gene testing, would that be benifical for methylation? I don't live in US so it´s a bit struggle/expensive to get it.
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  5. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    SO I am very curious, what would Rich's treatment be for someone with Lyme infection that has developed the Methyl block causative of CFS. Would it constitute removing the borrelia bacteria first then working on removing methyl trap, or release methyl trap and work at removing the underlying pathogen at the same time. Of course trying to get over an illness while having methyl trap is a terrible idea it seems so I am assuming the later.

    The only issue I see with lyme, my own case, and with the cases of others with lyme is that no matter how much you work at correcting methylation there may or will be some kind of blockage, or issues as the bacteria is throwing the homeostasis off for the entire body. I am now wondering if it is possible to perfect the methylation processes while the bacteria is present to better buffer the body, and to bring down the infection, even with the right supplementation and knowledge it still seems pretty hard to pull off if lyme toxins or bacterial load is higher.
  6. Helander

    Helander

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    I'd say that yu have to treat them both at the same time. Before methylation I made no progress with the infections but at soon as the methylation kicked in I started to get "correct" infection cycles and herxed, indicating some kind of die off. My testing also showed lower infection ratings after starting methylation so I do think there is a connection. Without proper methylation you never detox the toxins from herbals/abx and therefor never feel better. I would assume.
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    You can get a test via 23andme for around 99$, then get the raw results read on sites like genetic genie, mthfr.net, or bring it here and maybe someone could explain them to you. Interesting what you mentioned I have had very similar experiences, though this is also common of lyme for most with waxing and waning symptoms.

    Some days I literally felt almost 100% well, then others I would be so exhausted and tired I could barely move or walk up a stair case, sometimes this would happen within a two day period as well, it is very bizarre but definitely shows that we are doing something right as there is a very good response at times.

    You might want to try least 3000g of low potassium a day of supplementation to see good results there, the rdv is 4000g so no real risk judging there are no underlying conditions or issues with your kidneys and the like. Though this is taken through out the day, not 3000g at once, I never go above 900g a time myself. It seems most people benefit with that amount as a lower limit start, in most cases it doesn't seem like you need to go much higher either.

    It is possible that you and I are running into the same issues somewhere but it is hard to say without more info.

    First off how much methyl folate are you taking, what is the brandname?

    Are you balancing the methyl folate and methyl b12 with the other b vitamins?

    high doses of folate can cause a deficiency of b2 so it is important to supplement this as well, also I would buy the vitamins on their own instead of a complex.

    vitamin b6 can cause nerve issues in higher toxicity, I think I started getting tingling hands and feet so dropped the b6 and only use the other b vitamins for now, tried P5P form and still have same issues so staying away from it for now.

    Now are you taking anything in it with folic acid? Do you make sure to avoid all foods and supplements with folic acid and only stick with the methyl folate form?

    Do you also avoid NAC, Whey, and Glutathione supplements?

    It could be magnesium deficiency causing this and I am also extremely interested to know because I have the same exact things happen as you.

    Now another huge possibility is this could all be de tox too, you get those really big highs where you feel normal again and get methylation going, however on the flip side your body is now working hard to de tox and get rid of all those stored up toxins, this could be one reason for your oscillating condition of symptoms as well.

    PM me if you want, would love to chat with you on a more forward going basis to shoot back ideas, and strategies, and maybe unlock the mystery that surrounds this lyme with methylation issues that seem to plague us both!


    edit. You may want to look into Pyroluria and get testing for that, this is a condition that depletes zinc and vitamin b6 from the body via the urine through excessive levels of kryptopyrroles are in the body which bind to these minerals and lead to deficiency.

    Now it is considered a genetic condition but some people also believe that lyme can make this as a secondary cause, I never had issues regarding its symptoms but now can mark off almost every single one since getting sick. If Pyroluria is an issue then you will not methylate correctly because you need that zinc for things to function, and b6 to turn methionine into the nutrients needed for cell growth.

    The cool thing about this test is that it is very cheap and easy to do as well! You just need to go to someone that can run the proper testing and get it going for you!
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Good post, this was also my experience and seems to fit well!
  9. Helander

    Helander

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    I envy your 100 procent (almost) days. I haven't had a day for two years where I have one symptom free minute. But this methylation thing is pretty new for me, just 4-5 months old.

    The 23andme-test? It that a saliva test? In that case I won't need a doctor to draw blood, so that's a good thing. I might go for it then!

    I'm taking solgar methylfolate. I've played around with the dosages but right now I take 3200 mg a day. I usually take slight higher doses, around 6000-7000 mg when the "methyl trap crash" happens and have to back down to lower doses again to end the crash. Just to rule out donut hole-thing I've tried taking 20.000 mg folate when the crash happens but I never get out of the crash until I back down and raising the dosage don't seem to help at all.

    I take all the basics, a, c, d, lechtin, zinc, fish oil, mineral complex, carnitine, a-b12 and d-ribose, sam-e, tgm. Actually, I use Thornes B complex that has 200 mg folinic acid. I know it's a big no-no but I've tried the Nature Made complex that Freddd recommends but it makes no difference so I don't that folinic acid is a problem for me. And I also feel that I need the active b:s, Nature Made just has the regular forms. I take some additional p6p and additional panthitine.I know b6 can cause some neuro symptoms but I addeed p6p after the "crash" so I know that's not a factor.

    No NAC, gluthathione or folic acid or a lots of veggies.

    You know, I was thinking exactly the same thing the other day, perhaps it's not a missing factor in the methylation protocol, I just might be a massive lyme herx/detox. But on the other hand, I know what lyme/babesia herxing feels like and this "methyl trap crash" is a lot more powerful. And the only thing that has been described as powerful with a rapid onset is methyl trapping. But it´s just my guess. I really excited to see what the magnesium oil can do.

    Methylation is really complex, having lyme and other co-infections makes it extremely tough and even more complicated. On the other hand, it might be a good thing to know what's causing the methylation block in the first place.

    Pyroluria, yeah. They talk a lot about that on the cpnhelp.org-board, pretty common with Chlamyda P. I take additional zinc and p6p just to be sure. I'm not sure about how much zinc and p6p you're supposed to take with that condition.

    I really appreciate your input and kind words, Martial.
    Martial likes this.
  10. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Yeah it was pretty odd but not happening as often anymore now that I am treating more aggressively, Yeap it is saliva or blood testable and you can get the test delivered right to your home!


    Very interesting I have had the same exact experience as well, honestly recently I have been doubting the reality of methyl folate trapping, I know that low potassium symptoms are real but after talking to a friend on here and adjusting things on experience it seems more to do with an imbalance of b vitamins from the high folate intake.

    It has been proven to cause malabsorption of b2 at high doses for one, so you would need to supplement b2 at least 50mg a day with it, I would also not go above 3,000mg a day of the methyl folate people with lyme seem to get hit very hard with too much de tox if they push it to much.

    Well certainly some people can handle it, as long as it is not folic acid form but I think Fred has certain COMT mutations where he can't handle certain things that others may not have an issue with.. You should be fine with what you are doing now but my concern would focus on possibly investigating pyroluria with an actual test, this is apparently common with chronic lyme and causes a deficiency of b6 and zinc that becomes also chronic due to higher levels of krypto proteins circulating the blood and binding to them. It is a cheap and easy test to do and important because if you do have it then you will not properly convert the excess methionine you are taking in and this can also be problematic and a methyl trap in and of itself.

    Of course magnesium deficiency also acts as methyl trap in and of itself so you need to address this to. It is very important you test before supplementing for pyroluria as the amount needed to fix the deficiency is rather high and potentially toxic to someone that does not have this condition, we are talking like 150mg of zinc and b6 a day here, though even then always use the P5P form because it is much less toxic on the body.

    Well I think the issue is that the herxing is much heavier for us, while using methylation support because we are suddenly flooded with the ability to de tox so much and the body plays serious catch up, rather then a rise in symptoms from bacteria die off alone. I think the bulk of it correlates with inflammation caused by de tox from the methylation support.


    Hope this all helps and was happy to be able to give you some input!

    Sincerly,

    Todd


    P.S. PM me if you want to keep me updated with your progress, would love to share ideas and treatment options with you on a forward going basis! I am doing a lot of experimenting myself so think it would be neat to share things we find that help and stuff to work on.
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Northcoast NSW, Australia
  12. pela

    pela

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    I have an off topic question for the Lyme people: I do not have chronic Lyme. Last week I was bitten by a tick, briefly. Three days later I felt sick, swollen glands, sore neck, mild transient headache, chills, fatigue. All symptoms very mild, no bullseye rash. I still feel a little sick. No I did not save the tick. What should I do?
  13. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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  14. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    The experts say a tick has to be attached for over 36 hours to transmit Lyme.
  15. Helander

    Helander

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    Martial: I´ll definitely order some active(?) b2. Or would regular b2 do the trick? Thanks for the input. I´ve been a bit nervous to take to much b2 sice Freddd has pointed out that I would be wise to take low doses of b1/b2/b3. My mangesium oil has arrived, so I´m working on that. That pyroluria-thing, is that also a blood test? It's gonna take a miracle to get a scandinavian doctor to to that test, I'm afraid.

    pela: Well, If it was me I would take two weeks of abx doxy no matter what. Better safe than sorry. But with my tick-history I'm obvisouly paranoid since I almost died from a ticke-bite. Early caught lyme disease can also be treated with astragalus, if you don't want antibiotics. Good luck.
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
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  16. pela

    pela

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    There is disagreement on this.
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  17. acer2000

    acer2000 Senior Member

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    Not everyone gets a bullseye rash. Plus ticks can carry more than just Lyme disease (babesia, erlichia, bartonella, etc). Its possible you got one of those. Or maybe its unrelated? Maybe go to a doctor that knows about tick born illness and get tested?

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