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MAF 314

Discussion in 'GcMAF' started by firefly, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. firefly

    firefly

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    I'd love to chat with someone who has taken or is currently taking MAF 314.
    If you'd be willing to tell me a bit more about it, could you PM me?

    Many thanks. Appreciated.
  2. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    I'm also interested in the same.
    I'd love to hear about improvements, side effects, etc.
    Thank you!
  3. Rita

    Rita Senior Member

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    Im also very interested to know about Maf 314,or Maf 878 from Enlander.
  4. klimt

    klimt

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    Hi all,

    I was in Vienna last week learning the MAF 314 technique from Dr. Uta Santos-Konig. It has taken me till today to buy the bits and pieces needed to make it (bowls, jars, etc.) but I will be starting the process for myself tomorrow morning.

    It seems simple enough - although I was lucky in the end that my travel partner came to the appointment with me because I could not follow along with the process myself. It seems simple, but for us M.E. patients that doesn't mean that it will be. I would advise anyone intending to see Dr. Konig that they bring a healthy minded person with them to learn the method!

    Anyway, it costs 1000 euro for six months MAF 314 material, and she gives you a yoghurt maker to bring home.

    The material consists of 3 pouches of bacteria (or something) labeled '1'. Another 3 pouches labeled '2', and a tub labeled 'probiotic'. I have no idea what is contained in these packages.

    Each pouch lasts 2 months, in that because you are making this every week you will have a little bit left over from each batch. This is then added to next weeks batch, and the 'bacteria' will multiply again meaning that you only need to use one pouch every eight weeks.

    I will let you know how the first batch goes tomorrow. It takes 48 hours to 'culture', with a tiny bit of work involved every few hours in between.

    Best.
  5. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Thanks for sharing that Klimt - I hope your first culture works out textbook perfect! :)

    Sorry you had to encounter that attitude into the bargain!!
    Hope you'll be able to come back and report how you feel taking your maf 314.

    I strongly support the idea that a support person attends with the patient. Even though the process sounds quite straightforward it's a long, long way from opening a jar and popping a pill!

    Thanks again for the report.

    Best wishes..
    Anne.
  6. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    Hi Klimt,

    thanks for sharing this information. Keep us posted about your experience once you start with it.
    Can you pls help me understand how it works in practice.
    If I understand correctly, after six months you have to buy other supplies in order to be able to continue making the yoghurt.
    However, if it's a yogurt, is it not possible to save a bit of a previous batch to culture a new batch? This way one wouldn't need to buy supplies forever.
    Also, how many doses can you make from those supplies / required to consume. I mean can you make enough for say other family members or you're paying 1000 per person?
    Do you know who makes the basic supplies?, how do we know it's the real thing i.e. it's safe, pure and works ?

    All the best
  7. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Yes Klimt, please keep us posted.
  8. klimt

    klimt

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    Hi,

    No problem.

    I have no real idea of the science behind it, its beyond me at this stage but I think that whatever makes the 'MAF' effect must be itself beyond the ability of just 're-culturing'.

    Dr. Konig said that after 8 weeks you need to start afresh, so I presume that some of the essential ingredients must wear out after a time and do not strictly follow the same role. It is a pretty weird treatment I think, but hopefully after a couple of months more will emerge on the secrets of it. It would be especially nice if the contents were revealed and it was made much cheaper and more available. I hope that does happen. But if anybody has any info on the actual chemical process that occurs while making it I would greatly appreciate it.

    On the dosage/money aspect: Dr. Cheneys batch was enough MAF 314 for two people each week. But Dr. Konigs supplies half that amount. That is why it seems cheaper than Cheneys $5000 per year. Whereas this is 2000 euro per year, which I think makes it a little more expensive!

    Dr. Konig did say though that you could squeeze enough for two people out of her MAF, whether that be by adding more milk or just giving someone else the excess etc.

    But as far as I can see I don't know if splitting it between a family is possible. Maybe if you emailed Dr. Konig she might be able to tell you, her address is uta@santos-koenig.at , if you find out please let me know.

    I'm sorry I don't know who makes the supplies, all of the packages are completely void of any writing, company name etc. I wonder if Ruggiero makes them with his team?

    Best,
  9. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Multi strain bacteria cultures do change over time, some in days and some in months.

    I think the "chemical process" involves the bacteria consuming certain sugars in the milk/colostrum to change the available Vitamin D binding protein to DB-maf.
    It's bacteria working together. Beautiful!
  10. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Klimt,

    You are a hero to go through all that attitude stuff--will we ever escape it? Did she not read Ruggiero's study with Cheney on ME patients? Also, seems like Ruggiero could have clued her in about ME when he trained her. It is obvious that some ME patients are going to come to her for MAF 314 as it is the only source in Europe I believe.

    A note: A friend of mine did the training with Cheney and has been using MAF 314 for several months (she was also in the study). She finds that she can make enough each week for herself and 5 servings for a family member--not quite enough for full dosing for two.

    Good luck and thanks for being the pioneer here.

    Sushi
  11. Rita

    Rita Senior Member

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    Hello Klimt
    Very interesting. I wonder how it is that Uta Santos knows nothing of ME / SFC. If you have been the first patient with ME what illnesses had the previous patients ?. I know that in HIV forums is much talk about MAF 314.
    I also wonder whether there may be side effects or if you have to have some control, as in the case of GC MAF.Uta Santos should warn about this.
    About the starter we would need a chemist to analyze ... lol. and I hope that someone on the forum has knowledge of chemistry to find out or suggest.
    On the other hand, must we continue taking the MAF 314 for life? Ruggiero did not say that replenishes /repares the immune system quickly, in some weeks?
    To the price of the stater we must add the price of the liquid colostrum that is not cheap.
    I hope you very luck in making the MAF 314, but a lot more in the benefit of taking it.
  12. pieddours

    pieddours

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    Hello,

    I've been taking MAF 314 for just over three weeks now.

    My impressions of it so far are cautiously optimistic. The main change I've noticed is an improvement in my sleep patterns, along with a general feeling of sleepiness that sometimes persists through the day. I regard this as a positive step as I've had a lot of trouble sleeping in the past. Now I'm getting a pretty solid 7-8 hours per night with almost no waking. In addition, when I do wake in the morning it takes me quite a while to stop feeling sleepy. Sometimes I nap in the middle of the afternoon, which I was never able to do before (due to the "tired but wired" feeling I always had).

    I haven't noticed any major immune or inflammatory responses. I did have a mild sore throat the second week of taking it.

    My gut function is pretty much perfect, although it wasn't too bad before starting the MAF.

    In this last week, I would say I'm starting to notice a small improvement in energy levels. Over the weekend I was able to do 20-30 minutes of gardening and make dinner for several people. That almost certainly would have knocked me on my back in the past, but this time it didn't seem to cause a problem. So, as I said, I'm cautiously optimistic.

    I haven't had any trouble making it although it does require careful handling to maintain hygiene. As Klimt noted, you are required to throw out and re-start one of the cultures after 8 weeks. Because you are only given three packets of starter for this compound, that puts an effective limit of about 6 months on your supply. I don't know why this 8 week limit is set - I assume that the composition of the culture must change over time or perhaps this is an upper limit before the risk of contamination is considered to get too high.

    I'm disappointed that when trained how to make the MAF, you don't get any explanation of what processes are taking place. You just have to follow the recipe and trust that it is all working according to plan. I understand that Ruggerio wants to protect his intellectual property though.

    If anyone has any more questions about MAF314, I'd be happy to try to answer them if you want to post here or PM me.
    RL_sparky likes this.
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    A few people have had side effects that needed a doctor's attention. Cheney feels that anyone taking MAF 314 should be under a knowledgeable doctor's care.

    I have not taken 314, but having taken GcMAF, I'd agree that any type of GcMAF therapy really should be supervised by someone with experience with it.

    Hope this goes very well for you!

    Sushi
  14. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Question on how to make it

    I found this thread very interesting. I know very little of GcMAF and its probiotic version, just being through a couple of threads.

    May I ask a question to those who have been taking it.
    I understand it doesn't come as a prepackaged probiotic and it's made at home. I read about colostrum, secret ingredients, probiotics etc. but I don't understand how all those things are put together to make the finished yoghurt.
    Would you be so kind as to list the known ingredients and the steps you take to make it.

    Many thanks.
  15. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Does anyone wonder if other probiotics, less labor intensive, also raise macrophages? They are already known to alter the immune system, lower TNF alpha and other inflammatory cytokines and raise NK cells...how do we know how distinctly different this one really is? I'm not saying it's not, but it would be useful to measure on other well studied probiotics such as lactobacillus rhamnosus...for instance...
  16. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Jen, there are some really interesting studies done with probiotics and immunological factors :)
    At the IiME conference back in May one of the presenters said we should be drinking more cultured milks. "Lots of cultured milks".

    As far as I know it's the converted vitamin d binding protein that raises the macrophages rather than the probiotics themselves.
    ...Though, perhaps in the case of maf 314 the active bacteria are important as well? Prof Ruggiero has mentioned "resetting the gut micobiota" so the live bacteria may play a role.

    I think when a baby is breast fed the combination of nothers milk and naturally occuring (in a healthy, breastfed baby) bacteria might make db-maf? I could be wrong, but I still think it's likely that the combination of more than one bacteria that makes the maf.....One bacteria makes a partial conversion, then the by-products of that bacteria "wake up" the second bacteria and that one completes the process...that kind of thing. Even though some of the single strains are well studied I think measuring the cumulative actions of groups of bacteria is relatively unexplored.
    Anne.

    PS FWIW I've been taking a number of single strain cultures (l rhamnosus, l casei shirota, e-coli nissle and others) cultured in milk since the beginning of this year, plus cultured bio-kult, kefir and regular SCD yogurt and I haven't noticed any significant improvement beyond improvement in digestive health. Obviously I need to try 300 combinations next... :D



  17. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    pieddours,
    Another pioneer :)
    Your response to the maf 314 sounds encouraging! The changes in your sleep patterns and the tired/wired state are very interesting.
    Out of interest I'm wondering how much of the prepared "yogurt" you have to consume daily. And does it stay fairly runny when cultured, or does it separate into curds and whey?
    Best,
    Anne.
  18. Rita

    Rita Senior Member

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    I think we all want to know the exact formula for the yogurt, but by the moment its impossible,because the starters are secret.Ruggiero only knows.But he is a researcher of a public italian university (Firenze) and cant sell the product.Dont know if he wants o can patent it.Its logical that he makes money with the formula, and we, patients, are agree to pay for the product.Like a researcher, he needs money for the research, and patients need a treatment that works or can help us ( a cure is too much...) at any price.
    Now ,we want to be voluntary guinea pigs ,because we are not sure that the formula works.
    But I dont agree with the need to go to a certain country to learn to make the yogurt.
    Many ME/CFS patients are house or bedbounds, or very tired to travel.
    I hope Ruggiero finds the way all ME patients can obtain the product easily.
    And mainly I want all people , ME patients, who can acces to the MAF 314 have some important improvement in his health.It will be wonderful !!
  19. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Of course we can't work out the formula, nonetheless I thought it would be helpful to know how both known and unknown ingredients are put together to make the finished article.
    May be, and I say may be, one could, following the same process, work out an enhanced probiotic helpful to some with gut / candida issues.
  20. pieddours

    pieddours

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    Hi xrunner,

    Unfortunately when you are told how to make the MAF you aren't told what exactly you are doing. What happens is that you are given a bunch of ingredients and told how and when to use them. Basically, they are mixtures of various probiotics that you add to milk and colostrum. You cultivate these probiotics over a period of days and then combine the various cultivated products. It's pretty much just making yoghurt. The trick, as I understand it, is the exact mixture of probiotics used and that's something that I'm not privy to.

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