Phoenix Rising supports the Millions Missing global day of protest
Phoenix Rising is delighted to support the demands being made in the ME/CFS community’s first-ever global day of protest …
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Lysine and Detox?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Christopher, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    Turmeric seems to induce a similar "feeling". I don't know if "detox" is "slowing down" or not, but it is a certain feeling I associate with being particularly toxic.

    I feel great then crash generally with sulfur stuff...undenatured whey, ALA.

    And with turmeric I feel calmer but very toxic.

    Wondering what to do about sulfur intolerance if that's what's happening. Also mb12 and methylfolate help at first then nothing.

    EDIT: I'm going to leave this initial post up, but it's not very understandable. In short, I have recently been taking lysine at 2g/day for its antiviral effects, and because @ahmo told me it is being used to help detox sulfur.

    I crashed badly on it, similar to how I felt when I took an unusually large dose of manganese.

    The episode is now over, and I'm wondering what happened.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    I soaked my feet in clay last night and seem to be doing a bit better. I have been trying out lysine lately and for some reason it seems to be slowing down/overwhelming/negatively affecting detox. I feel calm, but extremely toxic, sluggish, depressed, miserable, not at all like my usual self.

    I've only been taking 1g at a time, maybe 2-3 a day, but need to stop as it's not right with my body.

    I have no explanation on why lysine would be doing this unless it's causing an amino acid imbalance. I hope the suicidal depression clears up by Christmas.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  3. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,701
    Likes:
    2,620
    Ashland, Oregon
    Christopher, sorry to hear you're going through such difficult times. All those toxic, sluggish, depressed, miserable, suicidal feelings can be very hard on the psyche, and I would be surprised if there's even a single person on this forum who hasn't experienced it.

    Whenever my body feels this way, I almost always get relief by taking a coffee enema. I realize most people would prefer not to think about doing them, believing they're just a bit too bizarre. But they have the ability to increase glutathione levels as much as 7-fold within a matter of minutes, and can cause significant alleviation of depression.

    I can at times pinpoint the exact moment when doing a coffee enema (usually around the 10-15 minute mark) when I was able to lift myself (and psyche) out of a the deep fog of depression/anxiety, etc.. For me, I don't believe I have anything that would come close to being classified as clinical depression; I believe instead that my body becomes depressed from so much toxicity floating around my system which is unable to be disposed of efficiently.

    Interestingly, coffee enemas to treat depression was the topic of a 1922 New England Journal of Medicine article. CEs had just been discovered a few years earlier during World War I when the Germans discovered they had a remarkable ability to reduce the pain of wounded soldiers. Their medical conditions necessitated regular enemas, and on a whim, one nurse suggested putting coffee in them to see what might happen. They noticed the soldier generally got significant pain relief for up to several hours.

    I considered the whole notion of coffee enemas for several years before I finally came to believe I needed to thoroughly explore what they might do for me. I really don't know how my body and psyche could have survived these past few years had I not had them in my arsenal of effective treatements for myself. --- Caveat, they work really well for me, but they may not work as well for others, especially if raising glutathione too rapidly can be too much for some people.

    If you're interested, HERE's A LINK to that NEJM article. Just a couple paragraphs should give you the gist of it. --- Good luck with your current situation. When things like that happen to me, I tend to quit most everything I'm doing to sort of regroup and get to some sort of baseline situation. --- Take care!
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
    South likes this.
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    Thanks Wayne. I do not understand what the lysine has done to my brain, but it is very scary. I am in a very agitated state of mind and cannot for the life of me settle down. It is very scary. I am not at all in a state of mind to conduct a coffee enema detox at the moment but thank you for your words.

    feel like doing damage to persons/property honestly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  5. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,701
    Likes:
    2,620
    Ashland, Oregon
    I wish I had some suggestions that would help you to get over your agitated state. I keep a supply of valium on hand for just such emergencies. I very seldom use it, and when I do, only need a tiny amount to take the edge off of extreme agitation going on in my body, brain or neurological system. It works on the amino acid gaba, which is calming. Not sure whether it's a good idea for you to consider supplementing with GABA, but thought I'd put it out there. --- Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting you conduct a CE experiment at this time; just sharing something for you to consider at some point.

    I hope you can get past this agitation you're dealing with. Sounds really pretty horrible. Would a hot bath help, or an epsom salts bath? Essential oil scents can be helpful for me, as can various kinds of energy and polity exercises. Here's a link to a thread I started a short while ago, which may be one other thing to consider: Mind Gems - Energetic/Polarity Exercises I Find Almost Indispensable. --- Take care!
     
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    Thanks. Actually I'm finding pleasure in hurting the people that love me. So that lessens the agitation somewhat :] thanks.


    OK, the episode is over. I'm going to refrain from taking lysine for a while. No clue what happened, although @ahmo did say that lysine detoxed sulfur, which is why I started trying it. I also had similar suicidal agitation when I took manganese.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  7. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    3,500
    Likes:
    3,076
    UK
    Be interested to see what others think. I've been advised to take lysine, plus arginine..... not too happy about the arginine as I have high HSV1 & 2 titres, but understand you have to balance them. But how on earth you do that I don't know. Its okay in supplements but then you add in food sources and ?????

    @Wayne
    I've been advised to start coffee enemas - I'm going to do water first then a weak coffee plus chamomile solution. I hope my body responds as yours does, fingers crossed.
    I had been looking into these for some time so didn't take much persuasion when advised I could benefit.
     
  8. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    I think my reaction to lysine is pretty rare, but just to be safe I'd start slow, wait a couple days, and make sure you can handle any side effects. There are 3g of lysine in a chicken breast, but that's coupled with 3g of arginine. Maybe taking lysine by itself throws off some balance.
     
  9. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    3,500
    Likes:
    3,076
    UK
    @Christopher
    thanks I didn't know that about chicken - I eat it every day - not breast nowadays, mostly thighs as I stew them gently for longer but good to know.
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    An oz. of thigh has 1091mg lysine and 850mg arginine. Chicken generally seems to have a bit more lysine than arginine. Don't know what happened with me and the lysine supplementation.
     
    maryb likes this.
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes:
    6,507
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @Christopher...YIKES! I'm so sorry if my advice precipitated this/these feelings. I know very well the feeling states you describe, but lysine has never done it to me. However, I'm also not eating anything with sulfur (thigh thiol), except for palm-sized amount of meat twice a day. If it actually mobilized sulfur, then I can doubly relate to your symptoms. A few years ago, before I knew anything about methylation, I took both SAMe and something else, NAC? not sure now...which made me extremely agitated. Coincidentally, I'm also getting set to do a coffee enema today. Hoping you're much more comfortable now. ahmo
     
    Wayne likes this.
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    @ahmo It's all good. I'm responsible for my actions and I've learned something new. Actually, I tried Lysine back in March, but the next day took manganese, which caused the initial severe neurological reaction. I had been associating it with the manganese, but maybe it was lysine or a combo that did it.
     
  13. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,701
    Likes:
    2,620
    Ashland, Oregon
    Never discount the possibility the brand of lysine may be a problem. Also, you never know when you could end up with a bad batch. Good quality control is not always an assured thing when buying supplements.
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,937
    Likes:
    1,470
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Christopher,

    Un-denatured whey can cause "glutathione detox" which is methyltrap. This is caused by the "too much" glutathione flushing active b12 from circulation and causing methyltrap giving severe low folate symptoms. The whey out of methytrap is to stop the whey, (also NAC, glutathione if taken), and taking MeCbl and l-methylfolate, titrated until the paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms go away. They can start changing in hours. A 1000mcg Enzymatic therapy MeCbl, in the absence of whey etc, can get a person out of methyltrap but then will go to partial methylation block most likely. It needs to be taken daily with sufficient Metafolin and other things to get and keep healing fping and get rid of "detox". The other most common form of "detox: is low potassium induced by methylation startup.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    I guess that is possible. It is NOW! brand lysine but a bad batch certainly is possible. I've never heard about lysine's ability to detox sulfur before @ahmo mentioned it, and I can't find a source online about it. I don't know if that's what was happening or if something completely unrelated was causing the symptoms.

    I know that the issue of sulfur is important to my health. When I was in a mold-contaminated house, as soon as I started taking undenatured whey, I felt as if I were cured. However, continual administration of the whey left me worse off than previously, while I was passing egg-smelling gas.

    Past that, when I have tried ALA, another sulfur supplement, I feel as if I am cured again, but this is followed by a horrific crash where any infections I might be carrying flare up, and I am worse off than before.

    Could this be a sign that my body has trouble with sulfur? And isn't sulfur important for certain detox mechanisms in the body? I have been focusing on methylation lately with my supplements (Mb12, methylfolate). I again have initial good feelings on this, but then seem to not do as well with continual supplementation. I wonder if supplementing my methylation cycle is causing more problems with sulfur than normal.

    I understand that there is debate about how Yasko views sulfur, but it seems I do have trouble with it, and it is inhibiting my well-being. If indeed lysine affects sulfur, that could explain my trouble with it.

    On a positive note, I have tried using my homemade FIR sauna for short durations, last night and this morning, and my neurological symptoms have calmed, and I have had some decent bowel movements, with constipation being a recurring problem for me.

    I hope the saunas do not prove detrimental down the road, like so much I try does.

    Thanks for your advice @Wayne @ahmo @Freddd




    EDIT: Apparently BH4 is raised with sauna use, which ties in with Bh4 being depleted due to the urea cycle being overwhelmed because of excess ammonia (yasko theory).
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    Wayne likes this.
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    Just read something new that arginine is a precursor to nitric oxide, which is helpful for clearing ammonia. So if lysine supplementation interferes with arginine levels in the body, that could theoretically increase ammonia levels.
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes:
    261
    Pennsylvania
    Yesterday I had lots of raw onions in a salad, and by the nighttime I was severely agitated, possibly due to the high thiol content. I've also been eating brussells sprouts this week. So anyway, I tried molybdenum, didn't seem to do much to calm me, but lysine @500mg might have helped. ahmo

    Also, maybe due to the onions, the sore throat that is a barometer of my detox capacity went away.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes:
    6,507
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    Hi Christopher. I learned about the lysine when I first was studying MTHFR from Sterling Hill @ mthfrsupport.com. Don't know if I've seen it elsewhere.

    Very interesting. I've just begun arginine after I saw it mentioned as anti-anxiety. I'm normally taking 1/4 tsp, but after coffee enemas I self-test for twice that, and more later. This is something I'm quite interested in at present. I've settled into a routine of 4 days of coffee enemas, 2 days off. It feels like mountain climbing, but it seems to be a good thing. I'm doing water followed by 2 x coffee, followed by water. I'm putting oregano oil and a few drops silver into the water ones. And I've begun doing something which has helped enormously. I now put most of the selection of aminos that I generally take by footbath, and have been doing so following these procedures, into the final clear water enema. So I'm flushing w/ ornithine, arginine, GABA, glycine, K+, and mg., se, zinc. The mg made a huge difference, as I started it the day after the others. This combination, as well as taking my anti-histamine supps before the final water enema, instead of after, have finally taken me out of the spaced out, irritable, uncomfortable state I'd been experiencing. The other sulfur-beating supp I use is butyrate w/ meals when I eat meat. And I've found Yasko's CBS RNA helpful. OK, hope you're doing well. ahmo
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page