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Lyme Diagnosis

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
@bertiedog - so glad you are getting somewhere with the herbs! small gains are so important for us. But as I have noticed small setbacks can become more permanent also.

I'm going to Breakspear at the end of Feb and am hoping they will agree to the IVIG KDM wanted me to have. if so then im hoping that might help with the immune issues and allow me to start tolerating herbs or drugs again (I spoke to a woman who itched for 16 years with Lyme and it finally went away with IVIG)
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
@justy Good luck with your visit to Breakspear, I have been twice and they did help me with autonomic testing that showed I was very low in oxygen at cellular level and Dr M said I should be breathing oxygen with a concentrator 3 times daily. I duly bought my own from EBay and have been using a concentrator for nearly 3 years now and it makes a big difference. I think it stops me from crashing as it feels like it puts back the energy I have used up by doing physical stuff like walking my dog.

I didn't have any conversation with them about Lyme though and it wasn't suggested either. You probably know that they are very keen on their allergy testing panels and desensitisation but I didn't want to go down that route because it just didn't fit with my symptoms.

The biggest problem with BS is the cost, its very easy to spend several thousand pounds without much to show for it. Anyway I don't want to be negative because I am hoping they will be able to help you.

Pam
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Lyme doesn't include PEM, though it can include exercise intolerance from OI. Both can feature neurological symptoms, but it would probably be a lot milder in some cases than in others.

But basically you hear of Lyme patients frequently recovering completely, or pretty close, once they get thoroughly treated. I'm not sure that's true of Lyme patients who have progressed into ME, especially more severe ME with more intense neurological symptoms.

It would be great if we could get more solid research into these things!

This perplexes me because I hear both sides. I've hear Lyme doesn't cause PEM but then heard that the co-infections do. Is it thought that if one has PENE that even if they have Lyme, they also have ME? I have extremely severe brain symptoms that are only rivaled by others with Lyme, Bartonella or babesia but also have severe exercise intolerance. In fact most of the reason my brain has received so much damage is because of energy expenditure. Never to my body tho- only my brain. I fit every criteria of the most severe type of ME but also lots of Lyme criteria.

If one has ME and Lyme then is Lyme really that important? What would make treating Lyme any more of a priority over any of the other active viruses or bacterial going on?
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
This perplexes me because I hear both sides. I've hear Lyme doesn't cause PEM but then heard that the co-infections do. Is it thought that if one has PENE that even if they have Lyme, they also have ME?
I don't think PEM is part of Lyme, and it seems unlikely that it comes with co-infections. People with Lyme, and even proper Lyme specialists, have absolutely no clue about PEM, and are just as annoying about the benefits of exercise as healthy people :p If PEM resulted from a co-infection, I'd expect a lot more awareness of it.
If one has ME and Lyme then is Lyme really that important? What would make treating Lyme any more of a priority over any of the other active viruses or bacterial going on?
Lyme has a pretty unusual impact on the immune system, basically hijacking it in the process of protecting itself. Hence additional infections might be a lot easier to detect and kill off if Lyme has been resolved first. At the very least, it is an infection which needs to get eradicated along with the other infections.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Valentijn, what makes you believe PEM cannot be part of Lyme? Bb can approximate so many other diseases, both in terms of its clinical manifestations, and the subjective symptoms reported by patients.

It is true that Lyme specialists endorse exercise, but the reason for that is theoretical, not really pragmatic, i.e., they suggest exercise not so much to prevent de-conditioning, as to generate more oxygen as the spirochetes supposedly shun oxygen. I doubt these specialists are all that familiar with hands-on presentations of PEM; and if they were, they would probably tell Lyme patients to do what every other clinician tells other sick people to do - exercise in spite of it, if only because PEM is not something they are intimately familiar with.

Regardless, whatever mechanisms are at play to generate PEM in ME, I can think of no logical reason that Lyme cannot mimic those mechanisms. This does not mean Bb does cause PEM - I'm just wondering out loud.

I know what PEM is, at least in terms of its effects and some of its science (when my brain is working), and I am very familiar with it, but I was diagnosed with ME/CFS before I found out I had entrenched Lyme. So I come at Lyme from an ME/CFS perspective.

In fact, I've thought about this often. Do I have ME and Lyme? Is it just Lyme? Does Lyme morph into ME? Are my positive Lyme labs really just a function of ME, just as my elevated titers for EBV and HHV-6 and Coxsackie A & B, etc, are? Are they all just ME/CFS artifacts? Or are Borrelia and company at the root of it all?

Right now, I doubt there is any definitive way to tell.
 
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msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
From what I remember, Burrascano advocates something like GET, which suggests that it (PEM) is at least an issue for some (perhaps the minority) of Lyme docs. It might just be that they are further behind than most ME docs in acknowledging their patient's limits.

Valentjin, do you mean that you think that PEM is a co-morbid condition? At least in my case, it seemed to occur at the same time as the original infection (Yersinia, in my case). I don't know whether there have been any studies of this (too unethical perhaps?), but I wonder what the effects of exercise are on people with the flu, etc. It would seem that sickness behaviour is an attempt by the body not to expend resources on unessential activities (such as exercise), so what happens if the sickness behaviour is ignored? I would expect the patient's conditions to worsen, but perhaps it would be qualitatively different from PEM.
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Why can't Lyme just simply cause ME like any other infection? If ME is triggered by a major insult, Lyme could definitely be one. Then it would be possible for someone to suffer from chronic Lyme and all of its symptoms as well as ME and all of its symptoms, including PENE.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
Why can't Lyme just simply cause ME like any other infection? If ME is triggered by a major insult, Lyme could definitely be one. Then it would be possible for someone to suffer from chronic Lyme and all of its symptoms as well as ME and all of its symptoms, including PENE.

I think this may be true for some of us.

Sushi
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
There are other similarities and ties between the two diseases that extend beyond diagnostic criteria and inadequate treatments. Governments and other concerns allegedly have handled both diseases inappropriately and - to be kind - disingenuously. A lot goes on behind the scenes that smacks of the unsavory, and which leads to tragic conditions for both patient communities.

These two diseases have a lot in common.
 

Art Vandelay

Senior Member
Messages
470
Location
Australia
Why can't Lyme just simply cause ME like any other infection? If ME is triggered by a major insult, Lyme could definitely be one. Then it would be possible for someone to suffer from chronic Lyme and all of its symptoms as well as ME and all of its symptoms, including PENE.

My doc thinks that I most probably have Lyme (equivocal positive from Igenex) and that it has caused my ME/CFS (diagnosed under Canadian Consensus Criteria).

I've noticed that my PEM is especially bad when I'm undergoing a Herxheimer Reaction from Lyme treatment so I have to be extremely careful not to over-exert myself then.
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
My doc thinks that I most probably have Lyme (equivocal positive from Igenex) and that it has caused my ME/CFS (diagnosed under Canadian Consensus Criteria).

I've noticed that my PEM is especially bad when I'm undergoing a Herxheimer Reaction from Lyme treatment so I have to be extremely careful not to over-exert myself then.

@Art Vandelay

And you want to be my latex salesman?

What type of PEM do you get if I may ask. My PEM is solely further functional damage to my brain in terms of more of it shutting down. I have yet to find another with the same issues
 

Art Vandelay

Senior Member
Messages
470
Location
Australia
And you want to be my latex salesman?

What type of PEM do you get if I may ask. My PEM is solely further functional damage to my brain in terms of more of it shutting down. I have yet to find another with the same issues

Haha, well, I've been thinking about a career shift lately by quitting exporting and focussing on importing ;)

My PEM seems pretty standard I think. Symptoms include a flu-ish feeling, fatigue, pain, cognitive difficulties, insomnia etc. My brain fog is quite severe though and I do notice that the fatigue from my PEM is significantly worse if it stems from exerting myself during a Herx.

Sorry to hear about your PEM @Aerose91 it sounds terrible.
 
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Daffodil

Senior Member
Messages
5,875
2 yrs of antibiotics with KDM and starting to feel positive finally. will get IVIG and maybe turn the corner finally after 21 years of utter hell! I wonder if I can work part time in 2 yrs or so.....still don't want to get hopes up...but something is changing.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Valentjin, do you mean that you think that PEM is a co-morbid condition?
PEM is a symptom, not a condition. And PEM not a symptom of Lyme in any literature I've read, nor of any illness I've ever heard of except for ME/CFS/GWS, and misdiagnosed FM. There's been a lot of research establishing that at least several completely different infections (some viral, some bacterial) result in ME. There is no reason that Lyme couldn't be one of those infections.

If PEM was a symptom of Lyme or a common Lyme co-infection, Lyme patients would notice, and it would be much better known in the Lyme community. Experts would not be recommending gentle exercise for Lyme patients if they had many with PEM, and non-ME Lyme patients would not be so completely ignorant about the entire concept of PEM.

Lyme and ME are two different diagnoses, though there may be a high degree of co-morbidity. While many ME patients have Lyme, most Lyme patients do not have ME, and many ME patients do not have Lyme.
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
2 yrs of antibiotics with KDM and starting to feel positive finally. will get IVIG and maybe turn the corner finally after 21 years of utter hell! I wonder if I can work part time in 2 yrs or so.....still don't want to get hopes up...but something is changing.

I'm so happy to hear this. Tho I experience a similar hell to you I can't imagine goimg through 21 years of it. If you feel like you are on the right track then you must be- you know your body best and I believe that you will regain your life.
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
PEM is a symptom, not a condition. And PEM not a symptom of Lyme in any literature I've read, nor of any illness I've ever heard of except for ME/CFS/GWS, and misdiagnosed FM. There's been a lot of research establishing that at least several completely different infections (some viral, some bacterial) result in ME. There is no reason that Lyme couldn't be one of those infections.

If PEM was a symptom of Lyme or a common Lyme co-infection, Lyme patients would notice, and it would be much better known in the Lyme community. Experts would not be recommending gentle exercise for Lyme patients if they had many with PEM, and non-ME Lyme patients would not be so completely ignorant about the entire concept of PEM.

Lyme and ME are two different diagnoses, though there may be a high degree of co-morbidity. While many ME patients have Lyme, most Lyme patients do not have ME, and many ME patients do not have Lyme.

I would have to say is agree with this. PEM just can't be a part of Lyme otherwise it would be well known. There are just some things about us ME people that are stark differences to every other illness
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Haha, well, I've been thinking about a career shift lately by quitting exporting and focussing on importing ;)

My PEM seems pretty standard I think. Symptoms include a flu-ish feeling, fatigue, pain, cognitive difficulties, insomnia etc. My brain fog is quite severe though and I do notice that the fatigue from my PEM is significantly worse if it stems from exerting myself during a Herx.

Sorry to hear about your PEM @Aerose91 it sounds terrible.

I appreciate it. It is in fact awful.

Are you on abx or herbals? If your herx'ing I'm assuming your having success with bug killing?
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
It may indeed be true that Lyme cannot claim PEM as a symptom; however, I would be reluctant to base that determination on the voracity of studies published to date.

Most of the recent studies designed to drill down on Bb sensu lato (certainly most of those emanating from the U.S.) have de-emphasized the degree to which patients are afflicted post-acute Lyme. These studies as a whole seem to suggest cognitive issues and pain and weakness and exhaustion etc, are not that severe outside of acute cases.

They seem to be exercises in a) denying any illness exist post-treatment, or,b) deriding the severity of symptoms post-treatment, or, c) ignoring the numbers of late stage patients, and, accordingly, the nature of their sufferings, and the peculiar difficulties presented in trying to eradicate the spirochetal disease once it has progressed this far (not unlike syphilis).

I can tell you with a high level of certitude based on my conversations with Lyme patients that that is simply an inaccurate representation of patients' experience. If anything, once the disease progresses beyond febrile involvement, and enters the realm of Late Stage or chronic or PTLDS, the symptoms are different than those when the disease was acute. The character of the illness evolves.

The degrees of involvement of different organs and tissues and muscles etc are different, too. Literature - by virtue of mistake or design - seems to omit this, or at best, minimize it.

And it's not as if the literature will be improving anytime soon. There are no meaningful studies I can see on the NIH agenda that are specific to Late Stage Lyme, and what efforts are underway for PTLDS or chronic Lyme seem disjointed and insincere.

So if PEM is ever to be recognized as belonging to the symptom pantheon of Lyme, it's probably not going to happen soon.

I also recognize that PEM is supposed to be unique to ME. That may be correct. If so, then I am face with an odd dilemma of allegiance, for lack of a better word. Or I simply have to get used to dual citizenship. But then, I suppose that's why I am here along with the rest of you. :)

So, I would not base my belief in that on the studies done to date by IDSA supporters, or even ILADS advocates since they have their hands full and coffers empty. Studies that were supposed to identify Bb symptoms and evaluate their impact through the three widely acknowledged Stages, and the curious enigma of PTLDS , imo only take the community so far, and then all too often, come up short.
 
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Daffodil

Senior Member
Messages
5,875
I'm so happy to hear this. Tho I experience a similar hell to you I can't imagine goimg through 21 years of it. If you feel like you are on the right track then you must be- you know your body best and I believe that you will regain your life.
funny...i recently watched an episode of Nip/Tuck where a man awoke from a 20-year coma. he looked 40 but felt 20. he wanted to do all the things that he had missed so he started going to dance clubs and had plastic surgery. it kind of hit home....all the mixed feelings he had.

anyway, in the show, he fell back into the coma in a few days lol
 

Art Vandelay

Senior Member
Messages
470
Location
Australia
I appreciate it. It is in fact awful.

Are you on abx or herbals? If your herx'ing I'm assuming your having success with bug killing?

I'm on the Marshall Protocol - I herx on olmesartan/benicar alone (because it appears to reactivate your immune system and weaken the bacteria). I was taking pulsed minomycin last year to try and hurry things along but so far this year I have just used apolactoferrin to break down biofilms.

It's been a very long road, but I am seeing some good, sustainable improvements.