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Lyme Cultured From Post-Treatment Sero-Neg Patients; Another Lyme Agent Potentially Identified

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by duncan, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    Isolation of live Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato spirochetes from patients with undefined disorders and symptoms not typical for Lyme borreliosis N. Rudenko, M. Golovchenko ,M. Vancova, K. Clark, L. Grubhoffer, J.H. Oliver Jr.
    Clinical Microbiology and Infection, online first, December 7, 2015.
    http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cmi.2015.11.009


    Abstract

    "Lyme borreliosis is a multisystem disorder with diverse spectrum of clinical manifestations, caused by spirochetes of the Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato complex. It is an infectious disease that can be successfully cured by antibiotic therapy on early stages; however, the possibility of appearance of persistent signs and symptoms of disease following antibiotic treatment is recognized today.

    It is known that Lyme borreliosis is mimicking multiple diseases that were never proven to have a spirochete etiology. Using complete modified Kelly-Pettenkofer medium we succeeded in cultivation of live B. burgdorferi sensu lato spirochetes from samples of humans who suffered from undefined disorders, had symptoms not typical for Lyme borreliosis, but undergone antibiotic treatment due to suspicion of having Lyme disease even though they were seronegative.

    We report the first recovery of live Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto from residents of southeastern United States and first successful cultivation of live Borrelia bissettii-like strain from resident of North America. Our results support the fact that B. bissettii is responsible for human Lyme borreliosis worldwide along with B. burgdorferi s.s. Involvement of new spirochete species in Lyme borreliosis changes the understanding and recognition of clinical manifestations of this disease."
     
    Rlman, Antares in NYC, justy and 8 others like this.
  2. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Wow, this should be a game changer (I hate that expression, but I couldn´t think of an alternative), but I know what the IDSA´s response will be: ´Oh no, you didn´t!´

    Do you have pantomime in America? I mean, the kind that isn´t sponsored by the IDSA and CDC?
     
    Antares in NYC, justy, ahmo and 2 others like this.
  3. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    I suspect K. Clark will be on the IDSA's Naughty list again over the Holidays. I would imagine by now he is used to it.
     
    msf likes this.
  4. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, this study says the results were from contamination.

    Would testing spinal fluid show if a person really has Lyme? It's such an invasive procedure, though. I recall reading something about this but can't find the article nor do I remember if this procedure was considered valid or reliable.

    It's just too bad that there isn't a more definitive test. Contamination runs amuck. Again!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3957795/#!po=3.84615

    Barb

    ETA
    It looks like testing spinal fluid is for neurological lyme and it's done by PCR. Isn't PCR similar to culturing so would run the same risks?

    I keep reading this article but it's late and my head is spinning. Maybe others know the difference /similarities between the two.

    http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical and Interpretive/83856
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  5. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Couchland, USA
    Actually, no, the study you linked to simply concludes that contamination "cannot be ruled out" or was the "probable source".

    Plus, the paper you linked to is from a year ago and refers to a study by Sapi et al, while the OP posted a paper from a new study,
    published last week, with different researchers and it seems like a different medium.
     
  6. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3993691/
     
    duncan likes this.
  7. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I had come across the rebuttal.

    Since this paper was just published it should be interesting to see reviews of it.

    The article I cited was talking about a different study. However, when I get chance I want to compare the two.

    Barb
     
  8. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Perhaps you should point out that the rebuttal you are posting refers to another study (and possibly a different method), and not just wait for someone to point that out.
     
    Antares in NYC, duncan and justy like this.
  9. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    @barbc56, as others have pointed out, the rebuttal paper from B Johnson et al you linked has nothing to do with the Kerry Clark paper.

    Indeed, the Johnson paper was a rebuttal specific to the findings from a totally different group headed by E. Sapi, published a couple years ago. The Johnson paper itself is almost two years old; this K. Clark paper is new.

    I am eager to learn more about the Clark study. Remember- it seems to discuss two potentially seminal findings, not just one. Unfortunately, it is behind a paywall.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
    justy likes this.
  10. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Well, yeah, if I had realized it was a different study. Oops! :D

    It will be interesting to see any similarities/differences between the two.
    Barb
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  11. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    That rebuttal of the rebuttal of the other paper seemed pretty comprehensive. Was there a rebuttal to the rebuttal to the rebuttal?
     
  12. msf

    msf Senior Member

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  13. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    So that one is from Johnson et al.

    And this one is from MacDonald.

    So who's telling the truth? Has anybody BLASTn(ed) these?
     
  14. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    @Dufresne , I think LHCTom did. He has a blog somewhere. It was brilliant. Sapi's paper took some hits, but so did Johnson's attack.
     
  15. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    So who came out on top?

    I read someone else's breakdown who stated many of the sequences were quite similar but not identical as Johnson states. And I don't know if very similar should be suspect.

    I know a few science-minded Lymies who maintain the CDC torpedoed this study with BS.

    It's funny, I came across posts last night suggesting LHCTom was Ed McSweegan's trolling name. McSweegan refutes this here: http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5034

    It's hard to make heads or tales of all the science without doing a whole lot of work, and even then it's usually still very ambiguous. I've a lot of respect for those that can tolerate the tediousness of it all and then still ask for more.
     
  16. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    I have spoken on the phone with LHCTom several times, and I have ANI. I can tell you he is not McSweegan. I can also tell you he is brilliant, I'm pretty sure with a few patents to his name.

    I haven't read the blog in a while. As I recall, LHCTom noted issues he uncovered, but he also found ridiculous problems with the rebuttal.
     
  17. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    I didn't actually think he was McSweegan. I just thought it was funny.

    I remember LHCTom claiming to be Lyme positive, but I also remember him as very neutral and science-minded. I just went through his parsing of both sides and he writes mistakes were made on both parties. However he highlights the 27 cases of b. garinii in American patients as being very unlikely: two cases wouldn't raise such a flag, but 27? This of course assumes the study of American ticks and the strains they are carrying is accurate. If it is, it does seem very unlikely you'd have 27 hits for this, at best, rare strain.

    But who knows? I don't put too much stock in that slow-moving dark spot originating in Lyme, Connecticut.
     

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